FIRE? Unless you hate or are bad at your job, isn't work the best part of life?

AlphaKappa

I'm happy to flash the cash if I feel I'm getting  value and happiness from the said goods/services - and can afford it of course without jeopardizing core needs (so spending sometimes goes beyond utility only). I love business class flights and posh holidays sometimes, nice car, etc - they could be life enriching . Where I draw the line is paying more for what I can get cheaper elsewhere (e.g. branded goods/food, gas + elec , data, mortgage, etc). I love a shop around !

zagfles

LV_426 said:

zagfles said:

The people that do it decided it! I think the main thing is to get value from your spending, cut out expensive superficial fluff that doesn't really add much value and you could dramatically reduce your spending, resulting in achieving FI much earlier.

For instance just from recent threads here, some people spend £60 a month on their mobile phone! Does a £1000 mobile phone really give you 5 times the value of a £200 one? I very much doubt it. Does flying business class really give you 3 times the value of flying economy? Does a £60k car really give you 4 times the value of a £15k one? Does a £2000 bike give you 10 times the value of a £200 one? Does a £200 michelin star meal give you 20 times the value of a £10 curry? Does a £14k package holiday give you more value than 6 self planned/cheap package holidays for £10k total? Do you really need a new outfit for every social event you go to? Does a £10k Rolex tell time 200 times better than a £50 timex?

I think once you free yourself from the myth that "you get what you pay for" and actually look at how much cheaper it is to achieve what you want to do without the superficial fluff, or without worrying about what others think, or trying to impress or show off to others, then you're almost guaranteed to achieve FI at a reasonable age.

I think it's far more about attitude to spending than it is to how much you earn. I know several people who earn far more than me but who will never achieve FI until state pension age, maybe not even then, because of their addiction to excessive spending mostly on superficial fluff which they think they "need". And I also know someone younger who's already retired, never had a well paid job, but whose spending is low so their requirement in retirement is low, not through denying themselves, just through having interests that aren't expensive. (similar to Sea Shell here, see the squirrelled nuts thread)

All excellent questions! I spend £6/month on my mobile phone contract. I bought a reasonably priced, SIM free device. I've kitted out the rest of the family similarly. Bear in mind that households have multiple mobile phones, and the monthly costs sure do accumulate. I don't feel any loss whatsoever from not having a £1000 iPhone, plus higher monthly contract fees.

But when you say, does an item costing many times more than an equivalent cheap one provide value, it depends how you define value. For some people, image is the value. They would like to be seen driving around in that expensive car, or having that expensive watch on their wrist.

It clearly is in some cases, for instance the Rolex, but I think in a lot of cases there really is the belief that you "get what you pay for" and that expensive products or services really do get you a better experience in line with the cost difference.

I have found it odd that with some things, some people will get annoyed that I don't appreciate the value but not others, for instance I drive a 14 year old car that I bought new for £12k and know people driving £70k cars who never seem to comment or ask why I'm driving my old car still, even if they know I can afford a newer car.

Yet I know people who travel business class who seem to get annoyed that I travel economy when I could afford business. It seems they're happy if someone can't afford business class, but if someone can afford it but chooses not to because they don't think it's worth the cost, it seems to annoy them! Also seen it in threads here on the travel board.

bostonerimus

The foundation of FIRE is frugality and aggressive saving and investing. Funnily that's what I grew up doing and by budgeting I've never felt I'm missing out. In fact being sensible with my finances has given me the enormous luxury of being financially independent in as much as I simply don't worry about money anymore. Having low expenses allows for greater saving and these compound so that when you retire you have a bigger pot than most people and lower expenses.

zagfles

Albermarle said:

zagfles said:

chiefie said:

Pollycat said:

RogerIrvine said:

Tenure to a paying post seems to be an invaluable perk. For example septuagenarian Paul Dacre has recently demurred from re-applying 

for the prestigious chair of the kingdom's media regulator to be parachuted into a more lucrative private sector post. In his 80th year, great football manager Sir Alex Ferguson continues as Manchester United's Global Ambassador, after a stroke. 

Acknowledged that us in the middling MSE crowd don't have that leverage, still, isn't it better to have the focus of a job? I may be wrong and obviously no disrespect intended  but get the impression that tax-considerations or, even worse, a failure of imagination lies behind this FIRE goal.

Writing as someone who took early retirement 18 years ago, I much prefer to focus on the things that interest me - although I did enjoy my job, I enjoyed my hobbies much more.

Work was never the best part of my life.
Work enabled me to do the things I enjoyed.

Maybe we weren't as frugal as some people with FIRE goal, but we always lived within our means. But we lived well.
When work colleagues were holidaying in 5* AI resorts, we stayed in small hotels.
When colleagues were driving BMW or Audi, we had a Yaris.

Totally this ☝️  Who decided that 5 days/week work for 50+ years as the best way to exist ?  It's easy to fall into the trap of consumerism to enable other, very rich people, meet  their own needs.

it's time to get off the roundabout 

The people that do it decided it! I think the main thing is to get value from your spending, cut out expensive superficial fluff that doesn't really add much value and you could dramatically reduce your spending, resulting in achieving FI much earlier.

For instance just from recent threads here, some people spend £60 a month on their mobile phone! Does a £1000 mobile phone really give you 5 times the value of a £200 one? I very much doubt it. Does flying business class really give you 3 times the value of flying economy? Does a £60k car really give you 4 times the value of a £15k one? Does a £2000 bike give you 10 times the value of a £200 one? Does a £200 michelin star meal give you 20 times the value of a £10 curry? Does a £14k package holiday give you more value than 6 self planned/cheap package holidays for £10k total? Do you really need a new outfit for every social event you go to? Does a £10k Rolex tell time 200 times better than a £50 timex?

I think once you free yourself from the myth that "you get what you pay for" and actually look at how much cheaper it is to achieve what you want to do without the superficial fluff, or without worrying about what others think, or trying to impress or show off to others, then you're almost guaranteed to achieve FI at a reasonable age.

I think it's far more about attitude to spending than it is to how much you earn. I know several people who earn far more than me but who will never achieve FI until state pension age, maybe not even then, because of their addiction to excessive spending mostly on superficial fluff which they think they "need". And I also know someone younger who's already retired, never had a well paid job, but whose spending is low so their requirement in retirement is low, not through denying themselves, just through having interests that aren't expensive. (similar to Sea Shell here, see the squirrelled nuts thread)

I would agree with your comments but just to add a couple of my own 

I know several people who earn far more than me but who will never achieve FI until state pension age, maybe not even then, because of their addiction to excessive spending mostly on superficial fluff which they think they "need".
You could also add people who are not addicted to buying expensive superficial goods , but whatever they do money just seems to flow their fingers . Basically clueless ( or always too busy ) to look for good deals/negotiate  , or lending money to family and friends that does not get repaid etc etc

Does a £60k car really give you 4 times the value of a £15k one?
You just have to be careful not go too far in the other direction, as buying too cheap can cost money as well , and maybe a £15 curry does taste 50% better than a £10 one .

I was careful to say a £15k car rather than a £3k one, you can easily get a good reliable car for £15k.

Actually the best curry place I know is a "takeaway with tables" type place where you can get an excellent curry for £5, much better than any place round here where it'd be double that or more, but it's a bit far to travel.

Also just been on holiday to Italy and it seems there was an inverse correlation between price and quality, and certainly friendliness of staff. The cheaper the restaurant, the better the food and the friendlier the staff!! (I'm not saying that's a general rule in Italy or elsewhere, just that it was in the small sample of restaurants on this particular holiday)

kinger101

ex-pat_scot said:

I am similar.
Fatigued.
I can hardly describe my working conditions as anything other than comfortable - WFH, nice people, great boss, generally great clients - but it's the volume of work, the endless additional stuff that's required, the targets, the neverending worry about coping and fitting in ever more with less time, fewer staff, greater demands, higher quality.  I just cannot ever mentally switch off, and have a continuous guilt that the to-do list isn't getting any shorter.

I also feel guilty that I don't enjoy it more. I do try and focus on the enjoyable bits - the engagement with clients, the stimulation of good colleagues.

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to focus, which really adds to stress/anxiety as the tricky stuff mounts up and I struggle to really get my teeth into it.

Overall it makes me tired, distracted, grumpy and never rested. Guilty, that I have life pretty cushy. Very well-paid.  Which then restricts my ability to maintain that level if I tried to simplify / move.

If I could, I would stop soon.
Perhaps pick up a little bit of contracting.
Certainly, once FI, then I do expect this to allow me the flexibility do work on my terms, and to take the pressure off the need to keep going and earning the big salary.

My position sounds very similar to yours.  My concern now is that I can't switch off at weekends or during holidays if I only take a week off.  With a family to support, a job on less than half the salary I'm on now (and potentially similar issues) isn't an option, so retirement is my only exit.

It sounds like you need an Operational Excellence expert at your company.  Nothing resolves problems quicker than someone with absolutely no understanding of current processes deciding how your job should be done.  And of course, they should always start on the processes that already work well, involving as many non-experts as possible ;-).  It can all be sorted by a Zoom meeting with no agenda. Arranged without checking your calendar.

kinger101

zagfles said:

Albermarle said:

zagfles said:

chiefie said:

Pollycat said:

RogerIrvine said:

Tenure to a paying post seems to be an invaluable perk. For example septuagenarian Paul Dacre has recently demurred from re-applying 

for the prestigious chair of the kingdom's media regulator to be parachuted into a more lucrative private sector post. In his 80th year, great football manager Sir Alex Ferguson continues as Manchester United's Global Ambassador, after a stroke. 

Acknowledged that us in the middling MSE crowd don't have that leverage, still, isn't it better to have the focus of a job? I may be wrong and obviously no disrespect intended  but get the impression that tax-considerations or, even worse, a failure of imagination lies behind this FIRE goal.

Writing as someone who took early retirement 18 years ago, I much prefer to focus on the things that interest me - although I did enjoy my job, I enjoyed my hobbies much more.

Work was never the best part of my life.
Work enabled me to do the things I enjoyed.

Maybe we weren't as frugal as some people with FIRE goal, but we always lived within our means. But we lived well.
When work colleagues were holidaying in 5* AI resorts, we stayed in small hotels.
When colleagues were driving BMW or Audi, we had a Yaris.

Totally this ☝️  Who decided that 5 days/week work for 50+ years as the best way to exist ?  It's easy to fall into the trap of consumerism to enable other, very rich people, meet  their own needs.

it's time to get off the roundabout 

The people that do it decided it! I think the main thing is to get value from your spending, cut out expensive superficial fluff that doesn't really add much value and you could dramatically reduce your spending, resulting in achieving FI much earlier.

For instance just from recent threads here, some people spend £60 a month on their mobile phone! Does a £1000 mobile phone really give you 5 times the value of a £200 one? I very much doubt it. Does flying business class really give you 3 times the value of flying economy? Does a £60k car really give you 4 times the value of a £15k one? Does a £2000 bike give you 10 times the value of a £200 one? Does a £200 michelin star meal give you 20 times the value of a £10 curry? Does a £14k package holiday give you more value than 6 self planned/cheap package holidays for £10k total? Do you really need a new outfit for every social event you go to? Does a £10k Rolex tell time 200 times better than a £50 timex?

I think once you free yourself from the myth that "you get what you pay for" and actually look at how much cheaper it is to achieve what you want to do without the superficial fluff, or without worrying about what others think, or trying to impress or show off to others, then you're almost guaranteed to achieve FI at a reasonable age.

I think it's far more about attitude to spending than it is to how much you earn. I know several people who earn far more than me but who will never achieve FI until state pension age, maybe not even then, because of their addiction to excessive spending mostly on superficial fluff which they think they "need". And I also know someone younger who's already retired, never had a well paid job, but whose spending is low so their requirement in retirement is low, not through denying themselves, just through having interests that aren't expensive. (similar to Sea Shell here, see the squirrelled nuts thread)

I would agree with your comments but just to add a couple of my own 

I know several people who earn far more than me but who will never achieve FI until state pension age, maybe not even then, because of their addiction to excessive spending mostly on superficial fluff which they think they "need".
You could also add people who are not addicted to buying expensive superficial goods , but whatever they do money just seems to flow their fingers . Basically clueless ( or always too busy ) to look for good deals/negotiate  , or lending money to family and friends that does not get repaid etc etc

Does a £60k car really give you 4 times the value of a £15k one?
You just have to be careful not go too far in the other direction, as buying too cheap can cost money as well , and maybe a £15 curry does taste 50% better than a £10 one .

Also just been on holiday to Italy and it seems there was an inverse correlation between price and quality, and certainly friendliness of staff. The cheaper the restaurant, the better the food and the friendlier the staff!! (I'm not saying that's a general rule in Italy or elsewhere, just that it was in the small sample of restaurants on this particular holiday)

Tourist places can be like that.  It drives the food and service quality down as the eateries don't need to rely on repeat business.

On the car point, I think you can get one that will last ca. 5 years in the £5K range.  I bought a couple of high mileage Mondeos like that. About £300 a year in repairs/maintenance on top of the service & MOT but great value overall.

zagfles

kinger101 said:

zagfles said:

Albermarle said:

zagfles said:

chiefie said:

Pollycat said:

RogerIrvine said:

Tenure to a paying post seems to be an invaluable perk. For example septuagenarian Paul Dacre has recently demurred from re-applying 

for the prestigious chair of the kingdom's media regulator to be parachuted into a more lucrative private sector post. In his 80th year, great football manager Sir Alex Ferguson continues as Manchester United's Global Ambassador, after a stroke. 

Acknowledged that us in the middling MSE crowd don't have that leverage, still, isn't it better to have the focus of a job? I may be wrong and obviously no disrespect intended  but get the impression that tax-considerations or, even worse, a failure of imagination lies behind this FIRE goal.

Writing as someone who took early retirement 18 years ago, I much prefer to focus on the things that interest me - although I did enjoy my job, I enjoyed my hobbies much more.

Work was never the best part of my life.
Work enabled me to do the things I enjoyed.

Maybe we weren't as frugal as some people with FIRE goal, but we always lived within our means. But we lived well.
When work colleagues were holidaying in 5* AI resorts, we stayed in small hotels.
When colleagues were driving BMW or Audi, we had a Yaris.

Totally this ☝️  Who decided that 5 days/week work for 50+ years as the best way to exist ?  It's easy to fall into the trap of consumerism to enable other, very rich people, meet  their own needs.

it's time to get off the roundabout 

The people that do it decided it! I think the main thing is to get value from your spending, cut out expensive superficial fluff that doesn't really add much value and you could dramatically reduce your spending, resulting in achieving FI much earlier.

For instance just from recent threads here, some people spend £60 a month on their mobile phone! Does a £1000 mobile phone really give you 5 times the value of a £200 one? I very much doubt it. Does flying business class really give you 3 times the value of flying economy? Does a £60k car really give you 4 times the value of a £15k one? Does a £2000 bike give you 10 times the value of a £200 one? Does a £200 michelin star meal give you 20 times the value of a £10 curry? Does a £14k package holiday give you more value than 6 self planned/cheap package holidays for £10k total? Do you really need a new outfit for every social event you go to? Does a £10k Rolex tell time 200 times better than a £50 timex?

I think once you free yourself from the myth that "you get what you pay for" and actually look at how much cheaper it is to achieve what you want to do without the superficial fluff, or without worrying about what others think, or trying to impress or show off to others, then you're almost guaranteed to achieve FI at a reasonable age.

I think it's far more about attitude to spending than it is to how much you earn. I know several people who earn far more than me but who will never achieve FI until state pension age, maybe not even then, because of their addiction to excessive spending mostly on superficial fluff which they think they "need". And I also know someone younger who's already retired, never had a well paid job, but whose spending is low so their requirement in retirement is low, not through denying themselves, just through having interests that aren't expensive. (similar to Sea Shell here, see the squirrelled nuts thread)

I would agree with your comments but just to add a couple of my own 

I know several people who earn far more than me but who will never achieve FI until state pension age, maybe not even then, because of their addiction to excessive spending mostly on superficial fluff which they think they "need".
You could also add people who are not addicted to buying expensive superficial goods , but whatever they do money just seems to flow their fingers . Basically clueless ( or always too busy ) to look for good deals/negotiate  , or lending money to family and friends that does not get repaid etc etc

Does a £60k car really give you 4 times the value of a £15k one?
You just have to be careful not go too far in the other direction, as buying too cheap can cost money as well , and maybe a £15 curry does taste 50% better than a £10 one .

Also just been on holiday to Italy and it seems there was an inverse correlation between price and quality, and certainly friendliness of staff. The cheaper the restaurant, the better the food and the friendlier the staff!! (I'm not saying that's a general rule in Italy or elsewhere, just that it was in the small sample of restaurants on this particular holiday)

Tourist places can be like that.  It drives the food and service quality down as the eateries don't need to rely on repeat business.  

Indeed, that was part of it - the cheaper places had mostly locals in whereas the expensive places seemed to be all tourists. I was a lot less cost conscious on this holiday as it was our only proper foreign holiday of the year, so didn't mind eating in more expensive places. But paying more got us worse food and service! Lesson learnt!

cfw1994

AlphaKappa said:

I'm happy to flash the cash if I feel I'm getting  value and happiness from the said goods/services - and can afford it of course without jeopardising core needs (so spending sometimes goes beyond utility only). I love business class flights and posh holidays sometimes, nice car, etc - they could be life enriching . Where I draw the line is paying more for what I can get cheaper elsewhere (e.g. branded goods/food, gas + elec, data, mortgage, etc). I love a shop around !

I think this hits the nail on the head to me....and of course, everyone is different 🐑🐑🐑

For someone who earned a 'decent' wage, deciding to scrimp on everything come retirement time would be rather...dismal, I fear 😱
I did lash out on a nice phone when I stepped away...yes, £45 pcm for 2 years, but 512GB storage, unlimited data/calls, waterproof, great camera means it meets my needs.   Could I have saved money?  Of course, but one does have to maintain standards (& it was only the second phone I'd ever paid for 🤣)

Cars...that's a tricky one.  Everyone's needs are different here too 🤷🏼‍♂️
We invested in an EV mid-2019, & you can't get a decent EV for less than 30-35k.....but it has been utterly brilliant for us, fits out lifestyle needs, & has technically cost us nothing to run over the past 28k miles.  Still have my XC60 - probably run that forever* - brilliant tip run, long distance holiday motor, etc....took the 4 of us to Scotland for an amazing graduation last weekend - the 660 miles on one tank is sadly still a distant pipe-dream for the EV crowd, & time was of the essence 💪

I do still struggle to spend heavily on luxury holidays or travel.....prefer to self-manage things, and fine occasional quirky spots to enjoy (examples from the past 10 years here, here and here!).....& spend far too much time on TopCashBack when pricing things up, checking utilities, etc 🤑🤪


* or until one of us dies first ⚰️

MaxiRobriguez

Bah humbug what's wrong with carrier pigeon, public transport and a holiday to the local.

kinger101

MaxiRobriguez said:

Bah humbug what's wrong with carrier pigeon, public transport and a holiday to the local.

I save money on carrier pigeons by not communicating with anyone.  My spreadsheet tells me I'll retire twelve days, six hours and thirty-eight minutes sooner by ridding myself of costs associated with lofts, feed and vets fees.