Long term sick - Can employer ask me to use some annual leave in return for a full month's salary?

Jillanddy

joenitro1 said:

Jillanddy said:

joenitro1 said:

Jillanddy said:

If you cannot take statutory annual leave (you are not clear on this point) theh there is a right to roll it over if it cannot be taken due to long term sickness. But there is nothing on law that prevents you from agreeing to take holiday and therefore get paid in full for time off. Honestly - I agree with rabatwork, and it's amazing to see an employer offer something fair and reasonable. You can refuse. They can give you statutory sick pay. 

I'm not quite sure what you're asking ref Statutory annual leave etc?     But I agree in principle.   I think they're being quite nice - just don't want to agree to it and find that it's affected me negatively in the future because I hadn't realised something :-) 

There is no right to carry over anything over and above statutory leave, so if your contractual leave is greater than that you may not be able to carry it over. For example, statutory leave is 28 days including public holidays. My leave is 37 days PLUS public holidays. But if long term sick I can only carry over 28 days - the rest I lose. That's why the question is relevant - you didn't mention what annual leave you have or how much you have taken already.

My annual leave allowance is 28 days plus public holidays. To further complicate this, I was allowed to carry over 5 days from last year due to COVID so my total for this year is 33 days.  I have taken 14 so far, leaving 19 left to take.
From the Acas website:

“ If someone has not been able to use their holiday because they’ve been on long-term sick leave, they can carry it over.

Employees on long-term sick leave can carry over 4 weeks’ unused holiday, unless the employer allows more to be carried over. This holiday must be used within 18 months from the date it’s carried over.”

Obviously this won’t be preferable to me - I’d rather forgo 7 days annual leave in return for a full months salary - no question :-)

The problem with short versions of the law is that they are inevitably wrong! And in this case the ACAS site - assuming this is all that it says (because it's a quote out of context) is wrong. You cannot carry over 4 weeks unused holiday. On that basis someone with 12 weeks annual leave could take 8 weeks before going off sick and then carry over 4 weeks! And that very definitely isn't what the law says. This is a better explanation than the ACAS one - https://worknest.com/blog/use-it-or-lose-it-new-rules-on-carrying-over-annual-leave-lost-to-long-term-sickness-absence/

Some people around here think that ACAS can never put a foot wrong. This is a very basic piece of law - pretty well known. Astonishing that they have posted something so very misleading. Or it is astonishing to some. It just goes to prove what some of us have said about vesting too much faith in what ACAS says. 

joenitro1

Jillanddy said:

joenitro1 said:

Jillanddy said:

joenitro1 said:

Jillanddy said:

If you cannot take statutory annual leave (you are not clear on this point) theh there is a right to roll it over if it cannot be taken due to long term sickness. But there is nothing on law that prevents you from agreeing to take holiday and therefore get paid in full for time off. Honestly - I agree with rabatwork, and it's amazing to see an employer offer something fair and reasonable. You can refuse. They can give you statutory sick pay. 

I'm not quite sure what you're asking ref Statutory annual leave etc?     But I agree in principle.   I think they're being quite nice - just don't want to agree to it and find that it's affected me negatively in the future because I hadn't realised something :-) 

There is no right to carry over anything over and above statutory leave, so if your contractual leave is greater than that you may not be able to carry it over. For example, statutory leave is 28 days including public holidays. My leave is 37 days PLUS public holidays. But if long term sick I can only carry over 28 days - the rest I lose. That's why the question is relevant - you didn't mention what annual leave you have or how much you have taken already.

My annual leave allowance is 28 days plus public holidays. To further complicate this, I was allowed to carry over 5 days from last year due to COVID so my total for this year is 33 days.  I have taken 14 so far, leaving 19 left to take.
From the Acas website:

“ If someone has not been able to use their holiday because they’ve been on long-term sick leave, they can carry it over.

Employees on long-term sick leave can carry over 4 weeks’ unused holiday, unless the employer allows more to be carried over. This holiday must be used within 18 months from the date it’s carried over.”

Obviously this won’t be preferable to me - I’d rather forgo 7 days annual leave in return for a full months salary - no question :-)

The problem with short versions of the law is that they are inevitably wrong! And in this case the ACAS site - assuming this is all that it says (because it's a quote out of context) is wrong. You cannot carry over 4 weeks unused holiday. On that basis someone with 12 weeks annual leave could take 8 weeks before going off sick and then carry over 4 weeks! And that very definitely isn't what the law says. This is a better explanation than the ACAS one - https://worknest.com/blog/use-it-or-lose-it-new-rules-on-carrying-over-annual-leave-lost-to-long-term-sickness-absence/

Some people around here think that ACAS can never put a foot wrong. This is a very basic piece of law - pretty well known. Astonishing that they have posted something so very misleading. Or it is astonishing to some. It just goes to prove what some of us have said about vesting too much faith in what ACAS says. 

Thanks for this - very interesting. 

Although, this is a direct quote taken from the last line of the page from the Worknest site that you shared:

” For UK employers, this confirms that in the absence of any contractual provision, there is no requirement to carry over any more than four weeks’ statutory leave in cases of long-term sickness absence.”

So it would seem that I need to check my contract of employment to see if there is any provision for carrying over annual leave? Or at least the 4 weeks of statutory leave…

Jillanddy

joenitro1 said:

Jillanddy said:

joenitro1 said:

Jillanddy said:

joenitro1 said:

Jillanddy said:

If you cannot take statutory annual leave (you are not clear on this point) theh there is a right to roll it over if it cannot be taken due to long term sickness. But there is nothing on law that prevents you from agreeing to take holiday and therefore get paid in full for time off. Honestly - I agree with rabatwork, and it's amazing to see an employer offer something fair and reasonable. You can refuse. They can give you statutory sick pay. 

I'm not quite sure what you're asking ref Statutory annual leave etc?     But I agree in principle.   I think they're being quite nice - just don't want to agree to it and find that it's affected me negatively in the future because I hadn't realised something :-) 

There is no right to carry over anything over and above statutory leave, so if your contractual leave is greater than that you may not be able to carry it over. For example, statutory leave is 28 days including public holidays. My leave is 37 days PLUS public holidays. But if long term sick I can only carry over 28 days - the rest I lose. That's why the question is relevant - you didn't mention what annual leave you have or how much you have taken already.

My annual leave allowance is 28 days plus public holidays. To further complicate this, I was allowed to carry over 5 days from last year due to COVID so my total for this year is 33 days.  I have taken 14 so far, leaving 19 left to take.
From the Acas website:

“ If someone has not been able to use their holiday because they’ve been on long-term sick leave, they can carry it over.

Employees on long-term sick leave can carry over 4 weeks’ unused holiday, unless the employer allows more to be carried over. This holiday must be used within 18 months from the date it’s carried over.”

Obviously this won’t be preferable to me - I’d rather forgo 7 days annual leave in return for a full months salary - no question :-)

The problem with short versions of the law is that they are inevitably wrong! And in this case the ACAS site - assuming this is all that it says (because it's a quote out of context) is wrong. You cannot carry over 4 weeks unused holiday. On that basis someone with 12 weeks annual leave could take 8 weeks before going off sick and then carry over 4 weeks! And that very definitely isn't what the law says. This is a better explanation than the ACAS one - https://worknest.com/blog/use-it-or-lose-it-new-rules-on-carrying-over-annual-leave-lost-to-long-term-sickness-absence/

Some people around here think that ACAS can never put a foot wrong. This is a very basic piece of law - pretty well known. Astonishing that they have posted something so very misleading. Or it is astonishing to some. It just goes to prove what some of us have said about vesting too much faith in what ACAS says. 

Thanks for this - very interesting. 

Although, this is a direct quote taken from the last line of the page from the Worknest site that you shared:

” For UK employers, this confirms that in the absence of any contractual provision, there is no requirement to carry over any more than four weeks’ statutory leave in cases of long-term sickness absence.”

So it would seem that I need to check my contract of employment to see if there is any provision for carrying over annual leave? Or at least the 4 weeks of statutory leave…

Assuming long term sick leave makes it impossible to take leave - and remember that the employer can simply tell you that you will take 19 days in December (if you are back at work) - then, as I have been explaining, the law says that you can carry over up to four weeks. Over and above that it is all down to what your contract says about carry over. Which is what I have been saying. BUT that is something of an "angels dancing on pinheads" argument for you. It is interesting but not relevant, because your employer is offering you enhanced sick pay in exchange for leave. You can agree to that. Or not. It's legal for them to make that offer. And it seems reasonable for them to do so. In fact my own reasonable employer would actually expect you you give up annual leave day for day - so if you wanted full pay for another 4 weeks then you would have to give up all 19 of those days (and then some!). So would most employers. What you are being offered well exceeds what most anyone else would do for you. So I might suggest you stop looking that gift horse in the mouth !!! It might have dentures, or need a couple of fillings, but at least you will have the money in your bank account to pay for them.

TELLIT01

joenitro1 said:

Jillanddy said:

joenitro1 said:

Jillanddy said:

If you cannot take statutory annual leave (you are not clear on this point) theh there is a right to roll it over if it cannot be taken due to long term sickness. But there is nothing on law that prevents you from agreeing to take holiday and therefore get paid in full for time off. Honestly - I agree with rabatwork, and it's amazing to see an employer offer something fair and reasonable. You can refuse. They can give you statutory sick pay. 

I'm not quite sure what you're asking ref Statutory annual leave etc?     But I agree in principle.   I think they're being quite nice - just don't want to agree to it and find that it's affected me negatively in the future because I hadn't realised something :-) 

There is no right to carry over anything over and above statutory leave, so if your contractual leave is greater than that you may not be able to carry it over. For example, statutory leave is 28 days including public holidays. My leave is 37 days PLUS public holidays. But if long term sick I can only carry over 28 days - the rest I lose. That's why the question is relevant - you didn't mention what annual leave you have or how much you have taken already.

My annual leave allowance is 28 days plus public holidays. To further complicate this, I was allowed to carry over 5 days from last year due to COVID so my total for this year is 33 days.  I have taken 14 so far, leaving 19 left to take.
From the Acas website:

“ If someone has not been able to use their holiday because they’ve been on long-term sick leave, they can carry it over.

Employees on long-term sick leave can carry over 4 weeks’ unused holiday, unless the employer allows more to be carried over. This holiday must be used within 18 months from the date it’s carried over.”

Obviously this won’t be preferable to me - I’d rather forgo 7 days annual leave in return for a full months salary - no question :-)

Although the OP would be able to carry annual leave over it doesn't really answer the question about income NOW.  If they don't agree to use up annual leave, their only income will be the approximately £100 from SSP.  Can they live on that as it seems the employer won't extend their discretionary sick pay any further.

joenitro1

TELLIT01 said:

joenitro1 said:

Jillanddy said:

joenitro1 said:

Jillanddy said:

If you cannot take statutory annual leave (you are not clear on this point) theh there is a right to roll it over if it cannot be taken due to long term sickness. But there is nothing on law that prevents you from agreeing to take holiday and therefore get paid in full for time off. Honestly - I agree with rabatwork, and it's amazing to see an employer offer something fair and reasonable. You can refuse. They can give you statutory sick pay. 

I'm not quite sure what you're asking ref Statutory annual leave etc?     But I agree in principle.   I think they're being quite nice - just don't want to agree to it and find that it's affected me negatively in the future because I hadn't realised something :-) 

There is no right to carry over anything over and above statutory leave, so if your contractual leave is greater than that you may not be able to carry it over. For example, statutory leave is 28 days including public holidays. My leave is 37 days PLUS public holidays. But if long term sick I can only carry over 28 days - the rest I lose. That's why the question is relevant - you didn't mention what annual leave you have or how much you have taken already.

My annual leave allowance is 28 days plus public holidays. To further complicate this, I was allowed to carry over 5 days from last year due to COVID so my total for this year is 33 days.  I have taken 14 so far, leaving 19 left to take.
From the Acas website:

“ If someone has not been able to use their holiday because they’ve been on long-term sick leave, they can carry it over.

Employees on long-term sick leave can carry over 4 weeks’ unused holiday, unless the employer allows more to be carried over. This holiday must be used within 18 months from the date it’s carried over.”

Obviously this won’t be preferable to me - I’d rather forgo 7 days annual leave in return for a full months salary - no question :-)

Although the OP would be able to carry annual leave over it doesn't really answer the question about income NOW.  If they don't agree to use up annual leave, their only income will be the approximately £100 from SSP.  Can they live on that as it seems the employer won't extend their discretionary sick pay any further.

Well SSP is £96.35 per week, so I'd get just under £425 for the month of November.  I'm fortunate enough for that not to be a major issue in the sort to mid term, but clearly I'd rather BE paid full salary than just SSP   :-)

getmore4less

Check the rules on SSP as this could become a longer term issue and the employer may not extend their generosity SSP is time limited.

A smallish issue for companies, carried over holiday remains a liability.

Sometimes it not about squeezing the last drop.

They have offered to swap 7 days for a full month's pay.

Agree clarify what they are expecting with potentially returning to work after 22nd and when the holiday will be applied.

As you believe it is your work that has caused the issue have you started the discussion on return to work and if adjustments need to be made to avoid recurring problems.

Possibly you could come up with a strategy that allows phased return, suitable duties, and a mix of holiday.