Leaving work on Ill Health

sjh101

Hello, 

I'll try and keep this as concise as I possibly can. 

In February 2021 I was off work for approximately 4 weeks for what was diagnosed as a facet sprain in my lower back. Leading up to it I was working (as a postman) and I started to feel pain in my back. Took tablets, put creams on thinking it would just pass but after a few more days it got progressively worse. I woke up one morning and I couldn't physically move. This was when I took 4 weeks off. I paid privately to see a chiropractor and it was him that diagnosed it as a facet sprain. 

So, although I wasn't fully fit, I felt well enough to go back in and do light duties, and this is what I did. I didn't realise at this point that I would still be suffering almost 8 months down the line. During this supposed rehab plan my symptoms changed slightly, and I was experiencing a persistent pain around my sacroiliac joint which may have originally been there but may have been masked by the other pains I was getting from the facet sprain. It is this that I am suffering with now.
At first work were really quite flexible which I found to be helpful, but I now realise that that was because of COVID, and they had endless amounts of agency staff in to cover as so many people were having to isolate.

As things were getting back to normal in terms of how the business was operating, I began to instantly feel more pressure for me to do more, and was often challenged by management if I opted to drop my workload slightly. Even though a set workload was agreed when I was seen by OH for an assessment.

I recently decided to send quite a detailed email to my head boss explaining everything in detail, from what I've been doing at work, to the things I have been trying to try and recover from this back problem. I thought this would be a good idea as I never really get chance to speak face to face to explain what is going on. I think I have spoken to him for a few minutes regarding my injury in the space of 8 months. So It was just to give him some clarity and let him know where I'm at. 
I get an extremely un compassionate response from him basically bullying me saying Its not fair that he's having to pay for me whilst i'm not performing my full duties , even though I am still doing my same hours, just slightly modified workload. There needs to be a final date for recovery, and that if I'm not capable of doing my proper job, then basically I should leave the business on ill health. There was an option he gave which I'm not confident would ease my problem, and it was a reduction in hours. He added for me to be careful as if I refuse this option, then I am rejecting their offer of support, and then the next outcome is to leave the business. 

Surely, employers can't treat their staff like this? To receive this in response has actually made me quite ill. Especially as I have been doing everything i can to recover, spending large amounts of money on private physio and chiropractic treatment, plus two young children and a wife to look after. Its not like I can just leave. 

So I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction for employee rights, and also generally just wanted to hear what others had to say about this. I'm genuinely shocked by this. I am also in the union but i want to speak with the head union rep, not the local one who works in our office. 

lincroft1710

You can be dismissed lawfully on capability grounds if you cannot perform your duties.

TELLIT01

Speak to your union reps as a first step.  Your experience is certainly not unusual with management at Royal Mail. The new boss at RM said his first major challenge was to change the culture of bullying at RM.

My brother-in-law finally handed his notice in 6 months before his 66th birthday because he couldn't put up with the bullying at his office, and he generally lets anything just slide by and ignores it.  He was actually suspended for not doing what a manager said, despite being told to do precisely the opposite by another manager on the same day!  The suspension was removed the following day and the manager who suspended him has apparently been off sick with stress ever since.

Manxman_in_exile

Is the only "diagnosis" you have had from a chiropractor?  Have you not sought a NHS referral from your GP?  (If you were concerned about waiting times I'm sure you would still have been able to pay to see a NHS clinician privately if necessary.  I suspect an employer would be more likely to give favourable consideration to a diagnosis from a NHS clinician rather than someone like a chiropractor or osteopath).

Undervalued

sjh101 said:

Hello, 

I'll try and keep this as concise as I possibly can. 

In February 2021 I was off work for approximately 4 weeks for what was diagnosed as a facet sprain in my lower back. Leading up to it I was working (as a postman) and I started to feel pain in my back. Took tablets, put creams on thinking it would just pass but after a few more days it got progressively worse. I woke up one morning and I couldn't physically move. This was when I took 4 weeks off. I paid privately to see a chiropractor and it was him that diagnosed it as a facet sprain. 

So, although I wasn't fully fit, I felt well enough to go back in and do light duties, and this is what I did. I didn't realise at this point that I would still be suffering almost 8 months down the line. During this supposed rehab plan my symptoms changed slightly, and I was experiencing a persistent pain around my sacroiliac joint which may have originally been there but may have been masked by the other pains I was getting from the facet sprain. It is this that I am suffering with now.
At first work were really quite flexible which I found to be helpful, but I now realise that that was because of COVID, and they had endless amounts of agency staff in to cover as so many people were having to isolate.

As things were getting back to normal in terms of how the business was operating, I began to instantly feel more pressure for me to do more, and was often challenged by management if I opted to drop my workload slightly. Even though a set workload was agreed when I was seen by OH for an assessment.

I recently decided to send quite a detailed email to my head boss explaining everything in detail, from what I've been doing at work, to the things I have been trying to try and recover from this back problem. I thought this would be a good idea as I never really get chance to speak face to face to explain what is going on. I think I have spoken to him for a few minutes regarding my injury in the space of 8 months. So It was just to give him some clarity and let him know where I'm at. 
I get an extremely un compassionate response from him basically bullying me saying Its not fair that he's having to pay for me whilst i'm not performing my full duties , even though I am still doing my same hours, just slightly modified workload. There needs to be a final date for recovery, and that if I'm not capable of doing my proper job, then basically I should leave the business on ill health. There was an option he gave which I'm not confident would ease my problem, and it was a reduction in hours. He added for me to be careful as if I refuse this option, then I am rejecting their offer of support, and then the next outcome is to leave the business. 

Surely, employers can't treat their staff like this? To receive this in response has actually made me quite ill. Especially as I have been doing everything i can to recover, spending large amounts of money on private physio and chiropractic treatment, plus two young children and a wife to look after. Its not like I can just leave. 

So I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction for employee rights, and also generally just wanted to hear what others had to say about this. I'm genuinely shocked by this. I am also in the union but i want to speak with the head union rep, not the local one who works in our office. 

You haven't said how long you have been employed (unless I am missing something). If it is less than two years then you have almost no protection. Even with more than two years, as lincroft has said, you can still  lawfully be dismissed if you cannot perform your duties although they do need to follow a fair process.

If your injury / illness amounts to a disability (for employment law purposes) then you would have some additional protection in that the firm would be obliged to make "reasonable adjustments" to help you stay at work. 

Strictly speaking, without a disability, they could lawfully say in effect "do your full job or no job at all". To be fair it sounds as though they have made some adjustments when maybe they weren't actually obliged to?

You need to involve your union ASAP. You pay your subs exactly for this sort of reason.

Jillanddy

Surely, employers can't treat their staff like this? To receive this in response has actually made me quite ill. Especially as I have been doing everything i can to recover, spending large amounts of money on private physio and chiropractic treatment, plus two young children and a wife to look after. Its not like I can just leave. 

I am saying this a working person with a severe disability. 

Employers pay you to do a job,  and they don't care about your personal life or responsibilities. They might appear to pretend they do,  but if they actually do,  they are in a very small minority.  Their interests come first. Most will,  these days,  makes some temporary amendments to help you back to your full job. If you can't get to that stage, then eventually you get to where you are. You may be offered reduced duties or hours often with reduced pay too. 

If that isn't possible,  or you don't agree,  you might qualify for ill health retirement. But that is definitely a might. I don't know what yours is like,  but ours ( public sector) would never give you ill health retirement for something so minor. And I don't say that to belittle your pain - it's simply a fact that I can barely walk, receive Higher Rate PIP in both categories, and even I can't get it! It is not usually easy. 

And if that option is closed,  its dismissal.  Sorry, but that's it. 

Be careful too about alleging bullying. Your expectations of how you should be treated,  and not being treated like that,  does not amount to bullying.  But if you are to get through this, you need your management on side and supporting you. It doesn't always help,  but believe me, having them against you won't help one bit.

To answer your question,  yes,  employers can treat staff exactly like this. We can't see the actual words used here,  but based on what you said he told you,  he is exactly right - and not only can they treat staff like this,  but they will,  and the law says they can. 

Please be very careful about assuming employers need to care or be compassionate. They only need to comply with the law. And the law doesn't offer anything like the protection people think it does. 

Marcon

sjh101 said:

Hello, 

I get an extremely un compassionate response from him basically bullying me saying Its not fair that he's having to pay for me whilst i'm not performing my full duties , even though I am still doing my same hours, just slightly modified workload. There needs to be a final date for recovery, and that if I'm not capable of doing my proper job, then basically I should leave the business on ill health. There was an option he gave which I'm not confident would ease my problem, and it was a reduction in hours. He added for me to be careful as if I refuse this option, then I am rejecting their offer of support, and then the next outcome is to leave the business. 

Stating the facts, albeit somewhat baldly from what you say, isn't bullying. He has simply pointed out the options, which quite understandably don't meet with your approval - but it doesn't mean the employer is doing anything wrong.

You're in a union, so as you've already said, talk to them.

JJ_Egan

Some medical opinions may well say no such thing as facet sprain , its just a non medically qualified opinion .

TBagpuss

So, your employer has offered to reduce your hours as you aren't able to manage your full workload? That sounds like a reasonable suggestion.

They've fagged up that it may not be possible for you to continue indefinitely if you aren't able to return to your normal duties.
Neither of those things are bullying. 

If you are unable t carry out your role then your employer can fairly dismiss you on incapacity rounds.

If your health issue amounts to a disability, his means that they are required to make reasonable adjustments for that disability. What is reasonable will depend on the specific circumstances (what's reasonable for a big company often won't be reasonable for a smaller one, for example). OH recommendations may be relevant but what they mostly do is suggest what would assist you in terms of your health issue - they aren't assessing whether those suggestions would be reasonable or not, that is a decision for the employer to make.

It's not clear from your original post whether you have had any medical advice and what that advice is (A chiropractor wouldn't normally 'count') or when the OH assessment took place and what their recommendations were.  

It sounds as though you originally expected to be affected short term and the advice was that you did light duties while you recovered - it sounds as though your employers view is that that is not a viable long term solution.

I think it's likely to be helpful for you to talk to your GP to get a clear idea of whether and in what timescale, you are likely to be in a position to return to your normal, full role and then dependent on that advice, start to think about what you want to happen and what requests for accommodation / adjustment you want to make - for example 

• a permanent move to a slightly different, less physically demanding role, (if one is available or if there is a realistic prospect one may become available  ) And, if a role of that kind would normally paty a t a different level from your current role, how you would propose that is dealt with
• working reduced hours and doing the elements of your current role which you are able to do, (in which case it would normally be reasonable for your pay to be adjusted t take account of the reduced hours and work load)
• Accommodations such as providing specific equipment if this would allow you to do your normal job, or allowing additional breaks

There may of course be other options depending on your specific role, needs and the nature of the workplace. 

If you are in a union, it may be helpful for you t talk to them about what advice or help they can offer, perhaps in helping you to navigate ny requests for accommodations (if the issue is classed as a disability) or flexible working requests 

Jude57

And OP, you are absolutely entitled to speak to a full-time union officer from your regional office. You may have to wait for a response as they tend to be swamped with work but if you have no confidence in your workplace reps then keep after the regional officer.

One word of warning though, don't seek legal advice outside the union until/unless the union approves you doing that in writing. Otherwise, the union may refuse to represent you, or refuse to pay for legal costs for you to be represented at tribunal.