Equal pay

JamoLew

nyermen said:

This isn't as easy a case on either side (well obviously I tell myself, or there wouldn't be all the protracted legal cases).  The potential arguments such as warehouses are central, you have to have extra training, etc etc didn't work in previous cases.  Many will remember the "bin men vs dinner ladies" case in birmingham, didn't it almost bankrupt the council (I think they had to sell the NEC?).  If the differing hours & physical requirements of bin workers are considered "equal value" (I believe thats the key legal term?)  to school food workers I suspect this will be considered even more similarity between supermarket roles.

What made me uneasy initially was the play on gender (when there's no evidence afaik that male and female store workers are paid differently, or male & female warehouse workers.  BUT the initial push was all about "checkout ladies vs warehouse men". Yes I get that there is heavily weighted genders in each case.

What makes me uneasy now is where does it stop?  Why is a manager any more valuable than any other staff member?  Police vs ambulance?  Doctor vs Nurse?  Surely all equal value?
And potentially going back many years including interest etc.  

Not judging supermarket pay by the way, I don't think its an easy job at all - and should be paid properly.  But I wonder what happens when you can't offer any more to people to do the "less fun" work, in many cases the jobs may have to be merged, and suddenly everyone has a turn in the warehouse (or on the bin lorry?  Not sure what happened there) etc?

Agree with almost all you write - although the bit in bold I would disagree with especially.

There is a world of difference between the qualifications and responsibilities between Doctors and Nurses

I do find the argument about different jobs/roles and equal pay interesting -- If you can get paid more for doing something of equal value, then I believe we are a free to apply for that job.

Very similar to people who "complain" about the NHS pension scheme - if it's so marvelous, why do we have so many vacancies

The closest system that I have knowledge of that attempts to assign measurable value to jobs,tasks and responsibilities is the NHS Agenda for Change job matching system which does actually work quite well (in most cases)

nyermen

Agreed, the qualifications for a doctor are significant (not saying nurses aren't!) - it was meant as an "extreme example" of where qualifications are involved, and how far does it go.

Andy_L

nyermen said:

What makes me uneasy now is where does it stop?  Why is a manager any more valuable than any other staff member?  Police vs ambulance?  Doctor vs Nurse?  Surely all equal value?
And potentially going back many years including interest etc.  

Police vs paramedic - minimal starting salary difference ETA, & the legislation only applies within the same employer - NHS & Home office are different organisations)
Doctor vs nurse - more training required for former

Andy_L

nyermen said:

Agreed, the qualifications for a doctor are significant (not saying nurses aren't!) - it was meant as an "extreme example" of where qualifications are involved, and how far does it go.

Higher Qualification requirements are an obvious indicator that 2 jobs are not of equivalent weight/value

Andy_L

nyermen said:

This isn't as easy a case on either side (well obviously I tell myself, or there wouldn't be all the protracted legal cases).  The potential arguments such as warehouses are central, you have to have extra training, etc etc didn't work in previous cases.  Many will remember the "bin men vs dinner ladies" case in birmingham, didn't it almost bankrupt the council (I think they had to sell the NEC?).  If the differing hours & physical requirements of bin workers are considered "equal value" (I believe thats the key legal term?)  to school food workers I suspect this will be considered even more similarity between supermarket roles.

AIUI the Supermarket is/was(?) relying on a defence that the warehouse was a different business unit and thus the legislation didn't apply rather than that warehouse work was, overall, harder and thus of more value which justified higher pay

nyermen

Not trying to cause a huge debate - i'm just wondering where this is all heading - were the bin workers and school canteen workers the same business unit?  And do qualifications count differently to training? (in which case, can we differently pay colleagues in similar roles but where some have vocational training and some with educational training?)

In no way trying to compare nurses and doctors on qualifications, just noting that in a hospital, they are both essential (ask doctors how many of them know how to connect up all the equipment...), so are they not "equal value"?

Just back to what I was initially thinking - it'll come down to the legal definition of that "equal value" i guess.  If there is genuine unfair pay, then I fully support the workers getting the pay, but where does it end? Plenty more spring to mind - I'm surprised other councils & other local government workers haven't claimed.
Private sector - What about amazon warehouse workers vs delivery drivers (springs to mind as I see an amazon van pass the window)

Andy_L

nyermen said:

Just back to what I was initially thinking - it'll come down to the legal definition of that "equal value" i guess.  If there is genuine unfair pay, then I fully support the workers getting the pay, but where does it end? Plenty more spring to mind - I'm surprised other councils & other local government workers haven't claimed.
Private sector - What about amazon warehouse workers vs delivery drivers (springs to mind as I see an amazon van pass the window)

"A woman is to be regarded as employed on work rated as equivalent with that of any men if, but only if, her job and their job have been given an equal value, in terms of the demand made on a worker under various headings (for instance effort, skill, decision), on a study undertaken with a view to evaluating in those terms the jobs to be done by all or any of the employees in an undertaking or group of undertakings, or would have been given an equal value but for the evaluation being made on a system setting different values for men and women on the same demand under any heading."

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1970/41/enacted



What about them? Amazon have deskilled/automated their warehouse operations. A PDA tells them where to go & what to pick & has worked out the most efficient route around the warehouse to do it. Their drivers still need a driving licence &, AIUI, are (sort of/tax fiddle-esque) self-employed & providing their own van

Andy_L

nyermen said:

Not trying to cause a huge debate - i'm just wondering where this is all heading - were the bin workers and school canteen workers the same business unit?  And do qualifications count differently to training? (in which case, can we differently pay colleagues in similar roles but where some have vocational training and some with educational training?)

Yes - the local council
They will each be judged on their own merits compared to the job. The warehouse will value a fork-lift ticket far more than a PhD in Economics. Head Office the opposite & the shop won't care about either, but might quite like someone with a butcher's apprenticeship behind them