Sub sales and Back to back transaction Mortgage

user1977

london21 said:

user1977 said:

london21 said:

Mine and my solicitor's efforts arent yielding much results and really dont know what to do now.

"Please provide property information form and fixtures list.

Please also provide AP1 submitted to HM Land Registry (or to be submitted to land registry with supporting documents)

Please provide your client’s full name to enable us to draft the TR1."

the seller's solicitor has provided a company name which is not the same on land registry. and stated "please  note our client’s purchase of the property is to coincide with its sale which is to take place simultaneously."

Well, that's all consistent with what you've been telling us so far.

So what i do not understand is are we going to get any documents like the  "AP1 submitted to HM Land Registry (or to be submitted to land registry with supporting documents)" or we just going to have to send money to my solicitor and complete.

someone on the forum said the land registry will go from the original owner's name to mine.
so why is seller's solicitor proving us with vendor's name which is not yet on the land registry.

You have a contract with the vendor. Probably - they'll transfer their ownership to you, and they either already own the property (but haven't registered their title), or their purchase will complete simultaneously with yours. If they're pocketing an uplift in the price, they are unlikely to want to disclose what that is to you any earlier than necessary. As above, if your solicitor is incapable of explaining to you what's going on (or doesn't understand it themselves) you may need to express your concerns to them.

MWT

I suspect the answer is becoming obvious, but did you get your solicitor to review the legal pack before bidding on the property or did you go to them only after the hammer fell?

london21

K_S said:

@london21 I'm a bit concerned. Does your solicitor know anything about auction purchases or a sub-sale? He sounds a bit green to be honest.

What exactly is he expecting from you?

My solicitor is asking vendor's solicitor for the below, vendor's solicitor has given a company name and he still keeps asking for the below. They have stated in the contract that if i insist on the vendor been the registered proprietor I will be paying their stamp duty. We have already exchanged when i won the auction so just from exchange to completion and to make payment. 

"Please provide property information form and fixtures list.

Please also provide AP1 submitted to HM Land Registry (or to be submitted to land registry with supporting documents)

Please provide your client’s full name to enable us to draft the TR1."

point 4 in the contract "If the buyer shall refuse to complete until the seller is the registered proprietor of the Property the buyer shall on the contractual completion date pay to the seller the balance of the purchase price to be held by the seller’s solicitors until completion and on completion the buyer shall pay to the seller in addition to the purchase price the stamp duty land tax payable by the seller in respect of the Transfer to the seller as a result of the buyer’s refusal to complete on the completion date "

london21

user1977 said:

london21 said:

user1977 said:

london21 said:

Mine and my solicitor's efforts arent yielding much results and really dont know what to do now.

"Please provide property information form and fixtures list.

Please also provide AP1 submitted to HM Land Registry (or to be submitted to land registry with supporting documents)

Please provide your client’s full name to enable us to draft the TR1."

the seller's solicitor has provided a company name which is not the same on land registry. and stated "please  note our client’s purchase of the property is to coincide with its sale which is to take place simultaneously."

Well, that's all consistent with what you've been telling us so far.

So what i do not understand is are we going to get any documents like the  "AP1 submitted to HM Land Registry (or to be submitted to land registry with supporting documents)" or we just going to have to send money to my solicitor and complete.

someone on the forum said the land registry will go from the original owner's name to mine.
so why is seller's solicitor proving us with vendor's name which is not yet on the land registry.

You have a contract with the vendor. Probably - they'll transfer their ownership to you, and they either already own the property (but haven't registered their title), or their purchase will complete simultaneously with yours. If they're pocketing an uplift in the price, they are unlikely to want to disclose what that is to you any earlier than necessary. As above, if your solicitor is incapable of explaining to you what's going on (or doesn't understand it themselves) you may need to express your concerns to them.

He just keeps saying maybe they have not yet registered or in the process but the conditions look like there will be extra charge if i want them to register first. I am barely able to cover the cost of the purchase without mortgage therefore cannot afford extra penalty charges. I am using 100% of my life savings and contributions from family.

if I am to benefit from the stamp duty holiday i only have less than 2 weeks left. the auction deadline is the 15th July. I can do with any savings i can get at present.

point 4 in the contract "If the buyer shall refuse to complete until the seller is the registered proprietor of the Property the buyer shall on the contractual completion date pay to the seller the balance of the purchase price to be held by the seller’s solicitors until completion and on completion the buyer shall pay to the seller in addition to the purchase price the stamp duty land tax payable by the seller in respect of the Transfer to the seller as a result of the buyer’s refusal to complete on the completion date "

london21

MWT said:

I suspect the answer is becoming obvious, but did you get your solicitor to review the legal pack before bidding on the property or did you go to them only after the hammer fell?

Sadly I made a costly mistake by not first approaching a solicitor with regards to the legal contract. Only approached conveyancing after the hammer fell. 

MWT

This does seem like a classic sub-sale SDLT relief situation, the vendor wants to avoid transferring into his name take advantage of the relief they will get by having the property transferred directly from the transferor (current registered owner) to the transferee (you).

If you insist on the vendor registering first then you pay the stamp duty they incur, and frankly you really don't want to do that...

Need to get your solicitor clear on that point I'd say...

london21

MWT said:

This does seem like a classic sub-sale SDLT relief situation, the vendor wants to avoid transferring into his name take advantage of the relief they will get by having the property transferred directly from the transferor (current registered owner) to the transferee (you).

If you insist on the vendor registering first then you pay the stamp duty they incur, and frankly you really don't want to do that...

Need to get your solicitor clear on that point I'd say...

Yeah think this is what is happening. But for the TR1 seller's solicitor is providing vendor's company name which is not the name on the land registry. 
I am informing my soliciot that i do not want to pay Seller's stamp duty and he is telling me they cannot sell it without paying stamp duty. 
I am running out of time and changing solicitor might not be the best option due to tight deadline. 
will await 1-2 days maybe seller's soliticitor comes through with more information/documents. 

K_S

@london21 Your vendor will submit an SDLT return and then claim sub-sale relief. That's how it works.

london21

K_S said:

@london21 Your vendor will submit an SDLT return and then claim sub-sale relief. That's how it works.

Ok thanks if that is the case i wonder why seller's solicitor are delaying sending the documents to my solicitor. I am a first time buyer myself and should have just saved myself all this stress and  bought from the usual estate agents. I am usually very careful but now i have to follow through the mess I have gotten myself into.

2. The seller shall, in addition to the Transfer Deed provide to the buyer:
a) The Transfer Deed from the registered proprietor to the seller
b) SDLT5 Certificate in respect of the Transfer to the seller
c) Form AP1 in respect of the transfer to the seller

london21

K_S said:

@london21 Your vendor will submit an SDLT return and then claim sub-sale relief. That's how it works.

thanks reading this and helps explain what you have said. http://bhwsolicitors.com/stamp-duty-land-tax-sub-sale-relief-overview/