How to respond to a job offer

Sandtree

BPL said:

They said after acceptance they would send out a contract to sign. Were advised to make it conditional by an ex hr person which tallied with advice online to avoid accepting a job unconditionally before seeing the actual contract.

If you've deferred to someone you consider an expert then its really them that should be continuing the advice.

Personally, as a non-HR person, you need to look at the power balance. Were it an interview to hire a CEO/CFO etc then there is reasonable balance or even the successful candidate holds the power if its a smaller company trying to attract a big name director. A graduate employee is the exact opposite... there are probably a dozen or more candidates they could hire as they're all a bit of gamble with no history and so you want them to be keen as mustard etc. The power is all with the company and boat rocking will not go down well.

Grumpy_chap

I wonder whether your HR friend was giving the advice as though it was you applying for the job and not your son?  When you are more mature or in a more senior position, you can be more demanding - especially if you are in a job and being enticed to leave security for a new employer.  Where that is not the case, the employer holds all the cards.

Employers want to see the individual is hungry to work for them, so the questions asked don't really inspire that.  Here is how  some of the questions asked could have been viewed by a prospective employer:

• Delay the start date.  You are a student with nothing else to do, start when we want.  Arrange your holiday / family trip before the start date.  (Is different if you need to agree notice with current employer).
• Pension.  It is what it is, you get what you get, it won't be flexed for a Graduate scheme entrant.  (Is different for a senior employee joining the board, where everything is negotiable.)
• Sponsor for MSc.   I want someone committed to my company, sounds like this person is really wanting do do a second degree and will be off if they can fund it.
• Sickness & absence.     Slacker.     (I would think that if asked by even the most senior applicants.  Once had a senior person join from contracting only find out a few weeks in their reason was good sickness cover as they had bowel cancer and being "on the books" they get paid absence which they don't as a contractor.)

I hope the above alternative perspective on the questions may help him in the future. 
All the stuff will really be in the contract and, at a junior level, cannot be changed from company policy.  The more pushy questions may be more appropriate when your son is joining as a Partner in a firm of Architects.

In fairness, my comment on the MSc funding is possibly unfair also.  It is necessary to review the career and whether an MSc is a strong added value in the industry and where the benefits are to the business.  I work in Engineering, where higher level qualifications are highly valued.  Even then it varies between companies and roles:

• Construction and manufacturing companies generally don't care as they want to just get the job done and if they need an expert, they'll hire the resource in for the task from their suitable Consultant.  No interest at all in sponsoring the MSc and would see it as someone wanting to work for a Consultancy
• Consultancies love it, would see the question as a sign of "drive" and commitment and want staff with more letters after their name than in the alphabet so they can sell their expertise to construction and sell at great expense to construction and manufacturing companies.

It is, of course, still entirely possible that they just "pulled" the job and the work is no longer there.  Anything can happen, especially in these strange times.

Good luck to your son in finding something better.

LittleVoice

BPL said:

My son received a graduate job offer in an email after a short video interview. He was asked to accept by 1730 two days time. He replied accepting the job subject to contract (I've never heard of a candidate accepting a job offer and specifying "subject to contract" - it is normally the employer offering the job "subject to references" etc) and asked a couple of questions as they had promoted (prompted?) him to do. After chatting (waiting?) for a week for the written contract he was sent an email saying the offer had been withdrawn as conditional acceptance and the work he was going to be doing was no longer there. I had gone to the trouble of getting him advice from a ex senior HR professional who helped draft his very polite response. He is naturally gutted and so am i. A friend working in the industry says anyone asking questions at interview or acceptance is often deemed to be trouble and would be rejected. 
Q. Is this now normal practice (smaller architect employer)
Q. Is it legal. Our fair employment legislation is very strong in northern Ireland so i was surprised at their response.
Any help appreciated i thought society had moved on. This seems a buyer's market attitude of abusing desperate graduates.
Tia

The friend - if they were referring to the type of questions asked - seems a better source of advice than the person who helped draft the questions.

BPL

Thanks for the reply.
Apologies for the auto corrects :-(
How do you know what you are agreeing to without seeing the contract? What else would you agree to without at least skimming the contract?
Yes prompted
Chasing not chatting... They didn't answer messages left or acceptance email.

BPL

@Grumpy_chap
Thanks for the detailed well thought out reply. I'm taking all this on board as you can imagine I'm a bit devastated by the outcome from a well intentioned bit of help and advice. I've had nearly 40 years as a Chartered Engineer and haven't encountered this situation before. 

Grumpy_chap

BPL said:

I've had nearly 40 years as a Chartered Engineer

You will be in much the same position as myself then in that if you go for a job you can interview the company as much (if not more) as the company can interview you.  The company needs your high skill set plus experience.

Sadly, your son is not yet in that position and has to do his few years of "sucking up" to get the future rewards.  What has happened is very hard for him, but employers of fresh Graduates really do want to see that the individual is "hungry" for the job and in an employer's market any sign of doubt can be seized upon.

Don't let him beat himself up over this - he will have learned a very valuable life-experience and will no doubt end up with a better position.  It is also possible that the company truly just "pulled" the job.  Good luck.

Grumpy_chap

BPL said:

How do you know what you are agreeing to without seeing the contract? What else would you agree to without at least skimming the contract?

You just accept.
If the deal comes through and is different, you can then clarify or withdraw.
To be honest, for an entry level role, the deal is the deal and so long as the salary matches what was said at the interview, there is very little more than can be varied.
Even more so if it is the only offer on the table.

There is nothing wrong in accepting and then withdrawing - it happens and the companies just have to live with it. 

My Niece Graduated two years ago and was over-the-moon to get a job offer on the Graduate scheme for Thames Water, grabbed it, plastered it all over social media and told all her friends.  Cloud Nine until two days later when the same good news landed for a role on the Grad scheme with Air Bus which she really thought was far more exciting.  What cloud is one up from Cloud Nine?  Does she even think about Thames Water?  Do Thames Water even recall her name?  Until they start proving themselves, even the best Graduates are just numbers to an employer.

Marcon

BPL said:

They said after acceptance they would send out a contract to sign. Were advised to make it conditional by an ex hr person which tallied with advice online to avoid accepting a job unconditionally before seeing the actual contract.

Pity your ex-HR person didn't understand the meaning of the words 'unconditional acceptance'. The words 'subject to contract' belong in house purchase transactions, not first jobs for graduates who are out of work and in a massively competitive marketplace.

Next time (and I very much hope there will soon be a next time!), best bet is for your son to enthusiastically accept the offer and wait for the contract. If there is anything he really doesn't like, he can politely say so at that point, although he need to remember he has close to zero negotiating strength in today's market, unless he has some exceptional skills which really matter to the potential employer.

Alternatively, he could simply decide not to proceed if he doesn't like the terms of the contract; nothing much the employer can do but feel annoyed with him. How long it will take him to get another offer is a moot point...so probably not a great approach.

BPL

Yes I'm taking on board all the well thought out replies. There does seem to be a huge difference between public sector / blue chip graduate employers and smaller ones. I know how my public sector employer gutted graduates as i was part of the recruitment. Once selected for written signing of contract we would never have withdrawn an offer. Anyone not asking intelligent questions would be shifted lower on the panel assessment sheet. They did ask for questions and did say they would send out a contract to sign on acceptance by email within 48 hours. They wouldn't return calls. Yes I will advise immediate enthusiastic acceptance and then read the contract after in future for small employers :-)

Masomnia

Gutted for your son because I've been there and I know how tough it is getting that first grad job.

It may well be that the company are being completely honest that the work has dried up and they can't afford a trainee. As an industry I think it's pretty normal to have ups and downs.

But I have to agree with others that asking a load of questions that boil down to 'What can I get out of you?' especially pertaining to sickness isn't a good look. I haven't worked with architecture firms myself but I have a couple of close friends who are Architects, and if you're working for a small firm the reality is that in terms of sickness benefits, pensions etc. you get the bare minimum legally and that's it. Probably true in large ones too, but I don't know. One friend in particular works for a well regarded, although fairly small, firm in West London and their HR department is the Director's wife on Google. They'd support their grads through parts 1, 2 and 3 workwise but wouldn't pay uni fees etc and if doing the MArch he should be able to get a loan for it now anyway.

I'd say he's early on in his career, and the best thing he can do is get a year or two's experience under his belt. If he joins a firm that won't give him the support that he'd get from other places he can always move.

Best of luck to him.