The move to heat pumps

[Deleted User]

I am not sure what people are worrying about. Octopus is about to release a heat pump for the masses (that said, there is reference to a need for much improved insulation):

https://octopus.energy/blog/heat-pumps/

Seriously, the Government is going to need to think long and hard about how they are going to sell heat pumps (and the associated costs) to the public.

Mickey666

Dolor said:

I am not sure what people are worrying about. Octopus is about to release a heat pump for the masses (that said, there is reference to a need for much improved insulation):

https://octopus.energy/blog/heat-pumps/

Seriously, the Government is going to need to think long and hard about how they are going to sell heat pumps (and the associated costs) to the public.

I tend to agree, though I suspect they'll just do it in the same way they do all their social engineering - via the tax system.

A few subtle 'nudges' leaked to the media - eg, banning gas boilers by 2025 - and a gradual increase in gas energy tax should do it, coupled with subsidies which have the double whammy of first hooking the early adopters and then scaring the latecomers into thinking they're missing out if they don't buy soon.  We're already seeing threads on this very dilemma on this forum.

That's unless some Farage-like single-issue politico pops up onto the scene campaigning for the right to continue using fossil fuels and stands for election on a platform of keeping them flowing and keeping down energy costs.

Of course it couldn't happen could it.  Who would vote for such a daft thing that went against all sensible advice and ostracised the country from all its more sensible, like-minded neighbours?  No, couldn't happen, people would see right through it, they wouldn't put their pockets before saving the planet, never . . .

shinytop

Dolor said:

I am not sure what people are worrying about. Octopus is about to release a heat pump for the masses (that said, there is reference to a need for much improved insulation):

https://octopus.energy/blog/heat-pumps/

Seriously, the Government is going to need to think long and hard about how they are going to sell heat pumps (and the associated costs) to the public.

I doubt it will be a problem.  Despite petrol and diesel cars being ubiquitous, cheap, efficient and flexible, most accept that EVs will replace ICE vehicles in the next 20 years.  ASHP -> gas won't be any different.  It helps that both sides of the political divide seem to think the same way.  There will be bumps along the way but it is going to happen so we may as well get used to it.  

Baxter100

Dolor said:

I am not sure what people are worrying about. Octopus is about to release a heat pump for the masses (that said, there is reference to a need for much improved insulation):

https://octopus.energy/blog/heat-pumps/

Seriously, the Government is going to need to think long and hard about how they are going to sell heat pumps (and the associated costs) to the public.

See this is the type of fluffy misinformation that worries me. From the article:

Do heat pumps still run when it is really cold outside? (Yes!)

Thanks to the heat pump’s internal compressor, it will always be able to heat the fluid inside (propane, for example) to the same temperatures, regardless of the temperature outside. When it is extremely cold outside (we’re talking -15°C), the heat pump can’t extract quite as much energy from the atmosphere as usual – but that doesn’t mean your house won’t get as warm as normal. On these incredibly rare, freezing days, the heat pump would just use a little more electricity to create heat, or in other words, work a tiny bit less efficiently, but it will still reach the same temperatures as ever. We see temperatures below -10°C only a few days per year, and even at these temperatures, heat pumps still function more efficiently than gas boilers do.

Paraphrasing:

"Heat pumps work efficiently even in sub-zero outside temperatures. There is a tiny reduction in efficiency, but this only happens on rare -10oC days. Even on these days the heat pump still works more efficiently as a gas boiler."

Flat out lies! The efficiency of a heat pump drops significantly as the outside air temperature decreases, because of course it does. This is how the technology works.

https://aspirationenergy.com/how-low-ambient-temperature-can-affect-your-heat-pump-performance/

And yes, it may still be more efficient than a gas boiler at this COP, but so too is the £20 electric fan heater I have in my conservatory. Can we please not try and mislead people with clever jargon and just give them the actual facts.

ABrass

Baxter100 said:

Dolor said:

I am not sure what people are worrying about. Octopus is about to release a heat pump for the masses (that said, there is reference to a need for much improved insulation):

https://octopus.energy/blog/heat-pumps/

Seriously, the Government is going to need to think long and hard about how they are going to sell heat pumps (and the associated costs) to the public.

See this is the type of fluffy misinformation that worries me. From the article:

Do heat pumps still run when it is really cold outside? (Yes!)

Thanks to the heat pump’s internal compressor, it will always be able to heat the fluid inside (propane, for example) to the same temperatures, regardless of the temperature outside. When it is extremely cold outside (we’re talking -15°C), the heat pump can’t extract quite as much energy from the atmosphere as usual – but that doesn’t mean your house won’t get as warm as normal. On these incredibly rare, freezing days, the heat pump would just use a little more electricity to create heat, or in other words, work a tiny bit less efficiently, but it will still reach the same temperatures as ever. We see temperatures below -10°C only a few days per year, and even at these temperatures, heat pumps still function more efficiently than gas boilers do.

Paraphrasing:

"Heat pumps work efficiently even in sub-zero outside temperatures. There is a tiny reduction in efficiency, but this only happens on rare -10oC days. Even on these days the heat pump still works more efficiently as a gas boiler."

Flat out lies! The efficiency of a heat pump drops significantly as the outside air temperature decreases, because of course it does. This is how the technology works.

https://aspirationenergy.com/how-low-ambient-temperature-can-affect-your-heat-pump-performance/

And yes, it may still be more efficient than a gas boiler at this COP, but so too is the £20 electric fan heater I have in my conservatory. Can we please not try and mislead people with clever jargon and just give them the actual facts.

That graph is weird. Why would you be heating your house when the Ambient temperature is 43 degrees outside?

Reed_Richards

My heat pump installer told me that when there was a really cold spell his heat pump kept going whereas the neighbours' oil boilers stopped working.  I presume they were external boilers.  By-and-large people are more concerned about whether their heat source keeps going in extreme cold weather than whether it becomes no more efficient than a fan heater in every room.

My heat pump does not heat water above 55 C and only then for the purposes of heating the hot water tank.  It could go hotter but then the efficiency is dreadful and so would be my RHI payments.  80 C "final temperature"?!?  No wonder that comes from a site called "aspirationenergy" because it's only some fantastic aspiration, not real.     

JKenH

For small properties is it not more efficient to have air to air heat pumps? I have quite a large house and a couple of air to air ASHPs meet quite a large part of my heating requirements (basically all of downstairs although in really cold weather I tend to run the CH an hour in the morning and again in the evening to heat up the other rooms) and have slashed our heating bills as a large part of the time they are running on solar power. The efficiency is great and the speed with which they heat a room up is amazing. In the winter I can either leave them running 24/7 or have them come on early in a timer to build heat up using the Octopus Go Faster tariff. For a property under 1000sq ft you probably wouldn’t need anything else.

Mine cost me around £2000 for the two.

Edit - link to thread on my experiences.
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4715287/discussion-ashp-air-air-with-solar-pv/p36

Baxter100

Reed_Richards said:

My heat pump installer told me that when there was a really cold spell his heat pump kept going whereas the neighbours' oil boilers stopped working.  I presume they were external boilers.  By-and-large people are more concerned about whether their heat source keeps going in extreme cold weather than whether it becomes no more efficient than a fan heater in every room.

My heat pump does not heat water above 55 C and only then for the purposes of heating the hot water tank.  It could go hotter but then the efficiency is dreadful and so would be my RHI payments.  80 C "final temperature"?!?  No wonder that comes from a site called "aspirationenergy" because it's only some fantastic aspiration, not real.     

This is exactly the point. Simply retrofitting heat pumps in place of existing boilers will not work effectively for the vast majority of houses in the UK, as the operating efficiencies of the systems would be as you say, dreadful. It would be a disaster.

I think if the government is serious about this actually working something like the following needs to happen (for every dwelling in the UK with a boiler):

1. Thorough fabric retrofit of the property (perhaps triggered by a boiler coming towards the end of its operational lifespan).

2. Dwelling insulated to the highest possible degree with ventilation requirements accounted for.

3. Careful cost consideration for effectiveness of existing emitters, with replacement if required.

4. Installation of heat pump.

5. Work ideally to be undertaken over late Spring/summer/early autumn months when heating requirement is 0.

Depending on the individual dwelling the costs for all of the above could vary from anything between £10,000- £50,000. A typical 1930s solid brick semi-detached house could for example require solid wall insulation, floor, and roof, insulation, replacement radiators, new double glazing and extract ventilation before even looking at installing the heat pump.

Who pays for all the work? Perhaps it could be added onto an existing mortgage. Perhaps the government subsidises it. Perhaps a charge is taken out against the property (aka the Green Deal). Perhaps those who can pay for it just pay for it.

Martyn1981

Baxter100 said:

Dolor said:

I am not sure what people are worrying about. Octopus is about to release a heat pump for the masses (that said, there is reference to a need for much improved insulation):

https://octopus.energy/blog/heat-pumps/

Seriously, the Government is going to need to think long and hard about how they are going to sell heat pumps (and the associated costs) to the public.

See this is the type of fluffy misinformation that worries me. From the article:

Do heat pumps still run when it is really cold outside? (Yes!)

Thanks to the heat pump’s internal compressor, it will always be able to heat the fluid inside (propane, for example) to the same temperatures, regardless of the temperature outside. When it is extremely cold outside (we’re talking -15°C), the heat pump can’t extract quite as much energy from the atmosphere as usual – but that doesn’t mean your house won’t get as warm as normal. On these incredibly rare, freezing days, the heat pump would just use a little more electricity to create heat, or in other words, work a tiny bit less efficiently, but it will still reach the same temperatures as ever. We see temperatures below -10°C only a few days per year, and even at these temperatures, heat pumps still function more efficiently than gas boilers do.

Paraphrasing:

"Heat pumps work efficiently even in sub-zero outside temperatures. There is a tiny reduction in efficiency, but this only happens on rare -10oC days. Even on these days the heat pump still works more efficiently as a gas boiler."

Flat out lies! The efficiency of a heat pump drops significantly as the outside air temperature decreases, because of course it does. This is how the technology works.

https://aspirationenergy.com/how-low-ambient-temperature-can-affect-your-heat-pump-performance/

And yes, it may still be more efficient than a gas boiler at this COP, but so too is the £20 electric fan heater I have in my conservatory. Can we please not try and mislead people with clever jargon and just give them the actual facts.

I'm confused (no surprise there) but why - "Suppose you have a temperature requirement of 80°C and your ambient temperature is 20°C."
I understood that aiming for higher temps knocks the COP severely, so is this 'just' a HP hot water tank, because the piece reads like space heating, and 80C seems extreme? At 20C ambient I'd just open the windows and back doors, but I'm odd like that.

Baxter100

ABrass said:

Baxter100 said:

Dolor said:

I am not sure what people are worrying about. Octopus is about to release a heat pump for the masses (that said, there is reference to a need for much improved insulation):

https://octopus.energy/blog/heat-pumps/

Seriously, the Government is going to need to think long and hard about how they are going to sell heat pumps (and the associated costs) to the public.

See this is the type of fluffy misinformation that worries me. From the article:

Do heat pumps still run when it is really cold outside? (Yes!)

Thanks to the heat pump’s internal compressor, it will always be able to heat the fluid inside (propane, for example) to the same temperatures, regardless of the temperature outside. When it is extremely cold outside (we’re talking -15°C), the heat pump can’t extract quite as much energy from the atmosphere as usual – but that doesn’t mean your house won’t get as warm as normal. On these incredibly rare, freezing days, the heat pump would just use a little more electricity to create heat, or in other words, work a tiny bit less efficiently, but it will still reach the same temperatures as ever. We see temperatures below -10°C only a few days per year, and even at these temperatures, heat pumps still function more efficiently than gas boilers do.

Paraphrasing:

"Heat pumps work efficiently even in sub-zero outside temperatures. There is a tiny reduction in efficiency, but this only happens on rare -10oC days. Even on these days the heat pump still works more efficiently as a gas boiler."

Flat out lies! The efficiency of a heat pump drops significantly as the outside air temperature decreases, because of course it does. This is how the technology works.

https://aspirationenergy.com/how-low-ambient-temperature-can-affect-your-heat-pump-performance/

And yes, it may still be more efficient than a gas boiler at this COP, but so too is the £20 electric fan heater I have in my conservatory. Can we please not try and mislead people with clever jargon and just give them the actual facts.

That graph is weird. Why would you be heating your house when the Ambient temperature is 43 degrees outside?

The graph just illustrates the fact that the efficiency of the heat pump drops as the outside air temperature drops. It's kind of ridiculous that a company like Octopus Energy would try to claim that it doesn't.

https://www.mibnet.se/house/HeatPumps/NIBE2020HeatPumpCOPCurves.html