Help - employment rights advice needed!

kay41_2

I was made redundant last week and asked to leave immediately. I worked part time 25 hours per week and was paid monthly. My contract is very basic and doesn't say anything about a notice period. I have always assumed that I would have to give a month's notice to quit and vice versa. Anyway I was totally gutted when they told me and didn't really have my wits about me. They told me they would pay me a month's salary and any holiday I was owed (I think 3-4 days) I have only been in the job 10 months and know that I won't be entitled to any redundancy.

A week and a half later (this morning) I got a letter in the post with my P45, a very brief letter and a cheque for 2 weeks wages gross. When I lost the job I had just been paid for November as I was working a month in lieu. I assumed that when they said they would give me a month's wages that I would receive another month's wages not the one I had just received. Hope this makes sense. The letter said they had given me 2 weeks which is more than the statutory 1 week (their words). Is this redundancy or wages or what?

Of course as it is Saturday I can't bloody ask anyone! I have rung a lawyer friend who is checking it out for me and left a message with a recruitment consultant friend. Also, the letter makes no mention of outstanding holiday pay. I also think they should have given me the letter, P45 and cheque on the day. I am also fed up because of the time of year! It is a small company and we got on very well, but they were on the skids financially (I did the credit control and invoicing as part of my job) so I am sympathetic and understand why they had to do it, but also want to establish my rights as I don't think they can just get rid of me and pay me 2 weeks money. I need advice on what my rights are and whether I should go back to them and ask about my holiday owed and my month's notice. Maybe I am being naive.

I really don't want to fall out with them 'cos it was a great job, they were really good fun and nice guys but I want to be treated fairly. Any advice wuld be very welcome!!!

Fran

Sorry to hear you have lost your job just before christmas. I hope you find something again soon.

kay41 wrote: »

They told me they would pay me a month's salary and any holiday I was owed (I think 3-4 days)

That sounds like they are giving you a month's notice but you are not required to work it.

... a cheque for 2 weeks wages gross.

It sounds like they changed their minds

The letter said they had given me 2 weeks which is more than the statutory 1 week (their words). Is this redundancy or wages or what?

It sounds like They have given you two weeks notice when they changed their minds about the amount. If your contract doesn't say otherwise then the statutory amount would be a week. However they haven't included the holiday pay so you need to find out when you will get it.

There is information about redundancy here.

Some Citizens Advice bureaux have employment specialists - in any case advisers can look up information for you.

I really don't want to fall out with them 'cos it was a great job, they were really good fun and nice guys but I want to be treated fairly.

That might be true but you have to look after yourself now, they have 'easily' let you go just before christmas.

LittleVoice

Basically, I agree with Fran in that, in the absence of anything to the contrary, you were entitled to only one week's pay plus pay for any holiday accrued and not taken. However

kay41 wrote: »

I was made redundant last week and asked to leave immediately. . . . any holiday I was owed (I think 3-4 days)

A week and a half later (this morning) I got a letter in the post with my P45, a very brief letter and a cheque for 2 weeks wages gross. When I lost the job I had just been paid for November as I was working a month in lieu. . . . . but they were on the skids financially . . .

I really don't want to fall out . . .

It seems you were asked to leave around 28 November. Did this mean that you had completed your hours for November (that is your 25 hours/week aren't spread throughout 5 days)? If not it appears they have paid you for 2 weeks plus 2 or 3 days for November when you did not work. Maybe this equates to whatever holiday they reckon you have accrued.

However you are entitled to holiday pay if you had accrued holiday at the time you were dismissed which had not been taken at that time. They should say how they have calculated this if they have paid you holiday pay. You need to work this out carefully yourself. The part-time nature of your post can have an affect if you did not work every day of the week. You need to look at what your written particulars stated. (They were obliged to give these to you.) If you did not have this document, you can only rely on being entitled to the statutory minimum (which changed on 1 October when you work out the pro rata amount).

When you say you were paid gross, do you mean they did not deduct tax and NI?

I also assume that a month "in lieu" means you were working simply paid at the end of the month for which you were paid.

If they are in deep financial trouble, you probably don't need to worry about staying friends with them. If you might be relying on them for a reference, then it is good to remain on amicable terms but if they are likely to go out of business they probably won't be there to be a referee for much longer.

Do you have work to do now (through your agency contact) or have you registered at the Jobcentre?

Good luck with all this.

LV

kay41_2

Thanks LV - good points I hadn't considered. I didn't think about the fact that I hadn't worked until the end of the month. So that's 2 days. I worked 5 hours every day and was paid monthly. If I was paid weekly I would only expect to get a week, but as I was paid monthly, I can't imagine that if I had resigned and given them a weeks notice they would have been too happy, so I had hoped it would work the other way. I basically don't understand why they don't have to pay me one month?

I suppose they have probably paid me the hours owed for my holiday pay as I had taken 3 weeks pro rata holiday this year.

I have been offered 2 temp jobs and can start working straight away, so all is not bad, but it still means Christmas is going to be pretty tight as my salary contributed significantly to the family income.

I just think that a month before Christmas to send me off with 2 weeks wages is pretty mean. Anyway I have kept myself busy visiting agencies and having interviews and there is still more in the pipeline.

Yes, gross means they did not deduct tax and NI. There is no explanation of how the money was calculated, which part of it was accrued holiday etc.

They are not likely to go bust at the moment, but they have had to pull their horns in and as the work I was employed to do was drying up there was no job for me. We weren't busy before I was asked to leave, but there was stuff to do.

I want to stay on good terms with them because it was a good job and yes, I will be needing a reference from them. But I don't want to chuck away a significant amount of money if they should pay me just for the sake of being polite!

Anyway, tomorrow I am ring ACAS and CAB to take advice. I never had a proper contract as such, just a letter of engagement with no details of notice period on. Have they cocked up by not providing me with this or have they hedged their bets?

They obviously felt my salary was pin money because they knew my husband runs his own business, but at the moment he isn't paying himself much as he has staff he employs and obligations towards them.

I'm reluctant to register at the job centre 'cos I am very well qualified to degree level and have heard that many employers just bin applications via the job centre. I also think I have enough resources and skills to find my own job. Also the job centre is near where I used to work!

Horace

Redundancy pay is paid gross and not subject to tax and NI. What is worrying is that you never received a proper contract - by law the company needs to provide a proper contract, terms & conditions, hours worked, notice period and holidays.

It sounds to me as though they have just made a decision to make you redundant without consulting you. You need to know if it is just you that has been made redundant or anyone else - how did they select you? You also in law have the right to appeal your redundancy and I would get that in quick.

Speak to ACAS tomorrow as they will be able to give you advice but bear in mind with them they are only an arbitration service (in my experience, they also put pressure on you to agree with the employer). Still, use them for free advice.

Jobcentres can be useful and signing on might seem a bit demeaning when you are not used to it but you need to remember you have paid tax and are therefore entitled and you will also get your stamp paid. Jobcentres do try to get people into work and I access their website from home to look for work - lots of NHS jobs appear on there but I am wary of jobs from temp agencies because my experience to date shows that they advertise fictitious jobs. I know this because I am more than qualified for the jobs for which I apply, I send my CV, get told that I am being shortlisted then nothing - no interview, no feedback nothing! I keep reporting the agencies to the Job Centre. It is a misnomer that employers will bin applications from those on JSA - very often the employer will have advertised for staff through the JobCentre so your argument is a nonsense. So what if the jobcentre is close to your works - what does that have to do with anything? I was made redundant in August after working for my company for 12 years - I wasn't given notice of my redundancy either so I appealed but am awaiting the outcome but I have lodged a case with the employment tribunal (the longer my employer takes to provide me with an outcome - the more money I get so far I have waited since 22 October and I was promised a result within 7 days). I make a point of signing on and claiming the benefits to which I am entitled because I have paid tax and NI for 27 years and this is my first period of unemployment in that time.

Temping is a good idea and I wish you well with it. You do need to register with some good agencies though e.g. Reed plus you can also register with specialist agencies that only provide temps or permanent employees to one field of work eg. lawyers, accountants etc.

Good luck.

kay41_2

Thanks Horace - I se now that I should have insisted on a proper contract. It's just me that has been made redundant but there were only 5 paid employees so it's 20% of the company! They selected me 'cos I was brought in to help with a particular side of the business and because (in my opinion they bit off more than they could chew) and it didn't do very well they decided to cut back on it. Also quite a bit of the company was funded by sponsorship and 50% of the sponsors for 2008 had pulled out because of the looming recession.

I didn't know I needed to be consulted about redundancy?

This is my first period of unemployment in 18 years - I was made redundant years ago but managed to pick up temp work, so was always earning money. I guess I should sign on for jobseekers allowance and will if my temping doesn't last after Christmas.

I am sorry to hear about your experience with agencies, what sort of temping are you doing? I have quite a good varied set of skills (IMHO) and am marketing myself as a sort of girl friday type who can go in to a small company, set up systems, do some credit control, do some invoicing, typing, filing etc. I have picked up 2 temp jobs doing this which can work together as they both only need a few hours in a week, so I can help out a small company who can't afford to pay someone full time, or don't need to. I am restricted because I have a school age child who I need to drop off and pick up every day, so I can't afford to be too fussy. Part time jobs are pretty hard to find, especially ones paying £10 per hour I am used to earning.

I have had several interviews, been offered 2 jobs (I chose to do them as a temp, they were both prepared to offer me permanent jobs) and have been contacted by several agencies who have read my CV on the web. Also, my husband has asked me to go in and do his books again for him, and I will ask to get paid this time. I did them 3 days per week for 3 years unpaid.

I am really trying to remain confident, not seem desparate, and stay positive and cheerful.

The thing that is hard for me is that I didn't really see it coming despite knowing the revenue was reduced. I guess I hoped they would ride it out a bit longer. I really liked the job, it used my skill set, gave me a few more skills I didn't know I had, and it fitted perfectly with my life. I guess it was a case of not counting your chickens. It's hard not to think that perhaps it was all a little too convenient, but I have to say we had to work jolly hard for our money and probably did full time jobs in less time.

Have you had any work since August? What does job seekers allowance pay and how many jobs do you have to apply for weekly to keep them happy?

My reluctance to go to the job centre is silly really. Can't explain, find it a bit embarassing...

Thanks for your advice. Maybe I should write and ask them what my terms of employment were, notice period etc and ask them to explain the payment in detail. Good luck with your search for work and your tribunal. On what basis are you objecting to your redundancy?

LittleVoice

Hi, Kay

With only ten months of employment, you had very few rights.

If they didn't provide you with the written particulars, then they were in the wrong and you can complain about that.

If they produce them now, they will rely on the statutory notice periods - which you now know means that you (and they for that matter) were entitled to only one week's notice. The frequency of your pay is not a factor in this.

If you don't have as much as 16 hours work a week, you can claim Jobseekers Allowance (Unemployment Benefit as was). It's not a lot, about £60 a week but your NI contributions would be credited too.

If you do register at the Jobcentre, I believe they will ask you to sign up to a jobseeker's contract which will involve various jobseeking activities - what you would be (and have been doing) any way. Use more than one means of finding work - web sites, visits to agencies, local and national newspapers, networking.

Best wishes

LV

Horace

Kay - I get income-based job seekers allowance which amounts to £59.15 per week - its not a lot but I can just about manage (all my redundancy pay has gone to pay bills and rent not that I had a lot of that either). My tribunal is based on unfair dismissal and disability discrimination. I was called into the office and told I had to leave that day, I pointed out to them that they had 5 vacancies all of which I was qualified for but I was told that I wouldnt be working for them anymore (this is a top UK university). I guess I was dismissed because I had dared to report my boss for harassment/bullying and discrimination and because he is a professor and therefore classed as untouchable it was felt that I should go. (He has managed to get through 50 temps in 4 years and 5 PAs). I was also branch secretary of my union - and my boss hated folks who were union reps.

Temping is hard for me now because of my visual impairment as most agencies have teensy weeny computer screens that I just can't see. I used to love temping too as once upon a time it was my permanent job - I just loved the challenge of going somewhere new each week. Through my DEA (Disability Employment Advisor) from the Job Centre I now have a full time job as Events Consultant (utilising all my skills - managing budgets, room bookings, exhibition space, etc etc) but it doesn't start until January, I haven't signed a contract yet so will carry on looking.

You have to complete a little form each week to show that you are looking for work - I fill it in and get it signed off (plus they never know if it is true or not because they don't check). It can feel thoroughly demeaning to be signing on, I hate it to be honest with you but at least I am looking for work unlike some of them that I see in there who have no intention of working ever!

When selecting people for redundancy, the company should look at everyone rather than one person because if not they are being disciminatory in some way. Small company or not, they still have to comply with the Law.

Horace

Kay - I get income-based job seekers allowance which amounts to £59.15 per week - its not a lot but I can just about manage (all my redundancy pay has gone to pay bills and rent not that I had a lot of that either). My tribunal is based on unfair dismissal and disability discrimination. I was called into the office and told I had to leave that day, I pointed out to them that they had 5 vacancies all of which I was qualified for but I was told that I wouldnt be working for them anymore (this is a top UK university). I guess I was dismissed because I had dared to report my boss for harassment/bullying and discrimination and because he is a professor and therefore classed as untouchable it was felt that I should go. (He has managed to get through 50 temps in 4 years and 5 PAs). I was also branch secretary of my union - and my boss hated folks who were union reps.

Temping is hard for me now because of my visual impairment as most agencies have teensy weeny computer screens that I just can't see. I used to love temping too as once upon a time it was my permanent job - I just loved the challenge of going somewhere new each week. Through my DEA (Disability Employment Advisor) from the Job Centre I now have a full time job as Events Consultant (utilising all my skills - managing budgets, room bookings, exhibition space, etc etc) but it doesn't start until January, I haven't signed a contract yet so will carry on looking.

You have to complete a little form each week to show that you are looking for work - I fill it in and get it signed off (plus they never know if it is true or not because they don't check). It can feel thoroughly demeaning to be signing on, I hate it to be honest with you but at least I am looking for work unlike some of them that I see in there who have no intention of working ever!

When selecting people for redundancy, the company should look at everyone rather than one person because if not they are being disciminatory in some way. Small company or not, they still have to comply with the Law.

kay41_2

Horace and Little Voice - thanks for your input.

I can probably manage to work under 16 hours per week...

Think I will go to the job centre, just swallow my pride. Will they take my husband's salary into account? On paper it's good, but in reality he never takes the full salary and sometimes not at all.

Horace - I wish you all the best with your events job - fingers crossed for you - sounds good, who is it with? It sounds like you were discriminated against.

LV - thanks for your advice - I think that's why they got rid of me before Christmas, 'cos we had an event at the end of January that was losing money and by the time that was over I would have been there a year.

I expect they were advised that. This is a spectacularly rubbish time of year to be looking, 'cos people are really winding down for the festive season. Some people ahve been daft enough to suggest that I should be happy to have time on my hands just before Christmas - are they thick? How can I go out and spend money on Christmas presents when I don't even know if I can pay for them?! It's a horrible time of year to have an uncertain future.

thanks for your advice.

LittleVoice

kay41 wrote: »

Horace and Little Voice - thanks for your input.

... Think I will go to the job centre, just swallow my pride. Will they take my husband's salary into account? On paper it's good, but in reality he never takes the full salary and sometimes not at all. . . ..

Assuming that you have sufficient NI contributions, any JSA you are entitled to receive will be contribution based. That is, it relates to the contributions you have made and not to your family income or savings.

If you do not have sufficient NI contributions, then it would be income based and family income would be relevant.

Even when JSA is clearly going to be paid on a contribution basis, they will still ask about your husband's employment status and so on. (It is annoying - at least I think so - but they claim to need to know your family circumstances even when those circumstances have no immediate impact on the payment!)

LV