employment categories (self emplyd ) and the census

marc3

I am self employed -happy with that -and not  here opening up again the debate as to when is self emplyd really an employee/worker -uber et al etc etc 
Whilst there are grey areas,  i always understood that ultimately  you fell into one of two categories-employed/worker or self emplyd .
That given, having just completed  Census i noted on employment page there are three categories :
employed/worker
self employed 
AND self employed with an employer .
(i assume  the latter would be if one gets ones business/introductions from a sole source)
Fine-but as far as i am aware this third category-which probably applies to quite a few people is a new category and first time i have seen it used is in this Census .
-so have the govmnt just introduced this third category ,or have i simply been previously ignorant of its existence.
-arguably -if one is in this third category -one is probably  'controlled' by another party ,and hence an employee and entitled to the usual benefits not self emplyd.
for me-strange that this additional category has now appeared  
anyone care to comment further/enlighten me ?

Marcon

marc3 said:

I am self employed -happy with that -and not  here opening up again the debate as to when is self emplyd really an employee/worker -uber et al etc etc 
Whilst there are grey areas,  i always understood that ultimately  you fell into one of two categories-employed/worker or self emplyd .
That given, having just completed  Census i noted on employment page there are three categories :
employed/worker
self employed 
AND self employed with an employer .
(i assume  the latter would be if one gets ones business/introductions from a sole source)
Fine-but as far as i am aware this third category-which probably applies to quite a few people is a new category and first time i have seen it used is in this Census .
-so have the govmnt just introduced this third category ,or have i simply been previously ignorant of its existence.
-arguably -if one is in this third category -one is probably  'controlled' by another party ,and hence an employee and entitled to the usual benefits not self emplyd.
for me-strange that this additional category has now appeared  
anyone care to comment further/enlighten me ?

This part of the census is very poorly worded. I couldn't figure out if they meant that you were self employed if you worked through your own limited company, or if they meant self employed for some of the time + another job in which are you employed; or possibly subject to IR35... I completed my form the day I got my code (3 weeks ago) and contacted them to ask for clarification. Needless to say, I've heard nothing.

MalMonroe

I don't think it's either strange or poorly worded. And the census form came with a notice that said if you needed any help, to contact them - although I see Marcon did contact them and received no response. 

My daughter is both self-employed and an employee, which she put on the (online) form. You're right, this category DOES apply to quite a few (a lot actually) people. Whether or not it's been on a census form before, time's moved on and things always change over the ten years between censuses. 

The thing is that it's over now and your form has been submitted so it's no good worrying about it. Hopefully you've done things correctly - don't overthink it, you could drive yourself mad thinking about things this government has done. Or hasn't done. 

marc3

Fair enough MM.
my question was perhaps badly constructed or not specific enough-my point was the wider one that i believe we have always had the principle of you are employed or self employed ,but at government level  this has introduced a third category (and hence would it  open up workers rights issues again at this level ).
as you say though-no point over thinking it. 

Marcon

MalMonroe said:

I don't think it's either strange or poorly worded. 

Look again in the context of my comment, and you'll see why the wording is so poor - and why the census will end up with the wrong answer in many cases, depending on what the question setters believed they were asking. 

Andy_L

Looking at the paper form avaliable on line (question 40) its Self employed with or without employees not with an employer ie do you employ staff or are you a one man band.
It seems surprisingly difficult to find the online questions to see if that is different

Manxman_in_exile

Andy_L said:

Looking at the paper form avaliable on line (question 40) its Self employed with or without employees not with an employer ie do you employ staff or are you a one man band.
It seems surprisingly difficult to find the online questions to see if that is different

I completed it online and I'm also pretty sure the question asked if you were self-employed with employees (ie self-employed with people working for you) not self-employed with an employer.  I may be wrong but I think I'd have noticed if it had said employer.

FWIW I thought the questions were quite well designed and I was amazed how quickly you could go through it.  (I was pleasantly surprised that they didn't conflate biological sex and gender).