Pension sharing order stop when the original benefactor died

philh99

Hi, I'm having some problems that I can't understand regarding a pension sharing order.
I am the executor of my best mate's will, he died in December.  In 2013, he signed a pension over to his ex-wife and I have details of a letter stating: "I can confirm that all benefits have been set up and paid to your ex-wife as per agreement in the pension sharing order."
The company have now stopped his ex-wife's payments stating that the pension sharing order has now ceased, as it dies with my friend.  The company will not speak to me about the pension, as it is in her name, however, they at first wouldn't speak to her and have now confirmed to her that it stops with his death.  When I spoke to the company, asking hypothetical questions, they said that the pension sharing orders stop when the original person dies, and when I asked for the original documents that my mate signed, they said I would have to show them the original documents. 
They have told his ex-wife that it is an appendage pension and that's why her payment has stopped and they are demanding she refund the amounts automatically paid after his death.  They have also sent me a letter demanding the overpayment back from me, as his executor, but the money was paid to her.
He and his ex-wife remained good friends after their divorce, and I can't see any way he would have signed this knowing it died with him.  I also cannot find anything anywhere on the net that suggests it isn't solely owned by her. Does anyone have any insight, thank you very much.

Andy_L

It looks like the company think it it is a pension attachment/ earmarking order (which would die with the husband). rather than a pension sharing order which wouldn't. 

Without seeing the paperwork you'd be hard pushed to tell if they are wrong. An indication that its an attachment order would be if his ex-wife started receiving the pension when he reached retirement age or only when she did (assuming there's an age difference)

https://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk/about-pensions/when-things-change/when-relationships-end/pension-earmarking

https://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk/about-pensions/when-things-change/when-relationships-end/pension-sharing

dunstonh

Hi, I'm having some problems that I can't understand regarding a pension sharing order.

Was it a pension sharing order or a pension attachment/earmarking order ?

What you describe sounds like the latter rather than the former.

when I asked for the original documents that my mate signed, they said I would have to show them the original documents. 

The original gets returned and is not retained.

He and his ex-wife remained good friends after their divorce, and I can't see any way he would have signed this knowing it died with him.  I also cannot find anything anywhere on the net that suggests it isn't solely owned by her. Does anyone have any insight, thank you very much.

Normally in these cases, a life assurance policy is set up to ensure the payments continue on death.   Often this is part of the legal agreement on settlement.   Is there a life assurance policy.

LHW99

Does his ex-wife have any paperwork from the original court decision?

TVAS

This is why it would have been better that the pension was split so that on his death she would have her own share of his pension. I cannot see how you would make the overpayment if she received payments after his death. You need to ask her to demand the original documentation of the pension sharing order. Actually I think you an an executor should ask for a copy of all of his records under a data protection because you want to see what he signed and how it was explained. I would complain to FOS. Insurance companies have to deal with executors on death this is not the first time an insurance company has been notified that one of their policyholders has died. I can only assume you are talking to divvy idiots on the phone. 

hyubh

TVAS said:

I would complain to FOS. Insurance companies have to deal with executors on death this is not the first time an insurance company has been notified that one of their policyholders has died. I can only assume you are talking to divvy idiots on the phone. 

What exactly do you think the administrator has done wrong...? Having to reclaim a final month's of pension is extremely common (nothing to do with earmarking orders in particular), and in many cases just unavoidable if pensions are paid partly or in whole in advance (rather than wholly in arrears).

dunstonh

I would complain to FOS.

It is unlikely the FOS have any remit give its likely to be an earmarking/attachment order rather than a sharing order.

This is why it would have been better that the pension was split so that on his death she would have her own share of his pension

That it not always possible with some types of pension. 

 You need to ask her to demand the original documentation of the pension sharing order.

They will not have the original  It is returned.

 Insurance companies have to deal with executors on death this is not the first time an insurance company has been notified that one of their policyholders has died.

The OP hasn't stated it was an insurance company.    If its attachment/earmarking rather than a sharding order then its more likely it is an occupational pension or hybrid/uncommon scheme.

I can only assume you are talking to divvy idiots on the phone. 

Or people that know what they are talking about.

It is very common for overpayments from date of death to be returned.    Occupational pensions are normally paid proportionately to date of death with any excess required to be returned.   Sometimes only the last whole month depending on whether it pays with or without proportion.  Some people don't notify the scheme for many months and a number of payments after death can be made and need to be returned.

We are missing some key bits of information and its way too early to be talking about complaining to the FOS.  a) You cannot complain directly to the FOS anyway. b) the type of pension may not fall within the remit of the FOS c) nothing suggests any wrongdoing is occurring at this moment in time.  Just gaps in information.

philh99

Just to go back over a couple of points, she doesn't have the documentation and she has been receiving it since she was 55. He died at 67 but had not retired.

This is the only information on the letter of confirmation I have from them and is word for word, there is no mention of attachment or anything else, this is all it says: "I can confirm that all benefits have been set up and paid to your ex-wife as per agreement in the pension sharing order."

The original gets returned and not retained - but surely they have some reference to the original instruction, rather than just telling me "well that will PROBABLY be because..."

They certainly don't talk to either of us on the phone as anything other than they stepped on us and it made a mess of their shoes.

"This is why it would have been better that the pension was split so that on his death she would have her own share of his pension" - as far as the letter said "I can confirm that all benefits have been set up and paid to your ex-wife as per agreement in the pension sharing order." - he gave her the two pension numbers, which were originally from a work based pension.

It is very common for overpayments from date of death to be returned - I'm not disputing that, but, as I said to them, if I have to pay anything out of his estate, I need something to categorically say why, backed up with some form of evidence. It's not my money and I need to justify it. They are chasing both of us, but won't talk to me about her 'account' and she is not allowed to talk to them about his 'account'.  

In a non lockdown world, I'd have gone to see her and we could have both been at the end of the phone together.

Thank you all for replies. I only have reference to pension sharing, not to anything else, which is where I've based my questioning to them, and been told they won't tell me anything about it. We had a Friday night conversation about this once, and he told me that if he died, she'd still get her pension, so that was what he believed he signed over (I don't have any evidence for or against, but thought they could confirm to me in writing that was the case in an official capacity).

Thank you again, I appreciate all replies.

squirrelpie

If neither your friend nor his wife kept any records about their divorce and the associated financial arrangements, they haven't done you any favours. As well as chasing the pension company to provide some evidence as you say, it might be worth trying to get a copy of court records for the divorce. If they used solicitors, it may also be that the solicitor has some records. You may need a solicitor as executor to persuade the pension company to restart payments, so perhaps engaging the same solicitor would also help them see their way to provide copies of the documents?

Does she have bank statements etc to demonstrate when she started receiving the payments?

xylophone

In 2013, he signed a pension over to his ex-wife and I have details of a letter stating: "I can confirm that all benefits have been set up and paid to your ex-wife as per agreement in the pension sharing order."

A pension -  was this a deferred pension from a previous employer? Or a personal pension of some description?

What kind of pension was this?

And "appendage" pension? What on earth does this mean?  That the ex wife was an appendage of her husband?  That the court order was appended to the pension?

Did the ex wife start to receive the pension in 2013? Or later when she turned 55?

https://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk/about-pensions/when-things-change/when-relationships-end/divorce-dissolution-and-separation  might be worth a call?

And this business of wanting the return of the payments after the death of your friend - this would imply that he should properly have been receiving the payments but that they were diverted to his ex wife as a result of the court order?

hyubh

philh99 said:

Just to go back over a couple of points, she doesn't have the documentation and she has been receiving it since she was 55. He died at 67 but had not retired.

This is the only information on the letter of confirmation I have from them and is word for word, there is no mention of attachment or anything else, this is all it says: "I can confirm that all benefits have been set up and paid to your ex-wife as per agreement in the pension sharing order."

So... he was 'retired' from the point of view of the pension scheme (i.e. he was no longer an active or deferred/preserved member), but all of the pension in payment was earmarked for the ex-spouse...? And because she wanted an income ASAP, he took early retirement maybe...? ('Retirement' in the context of an occupational scheme just means, drawing a pension from it. Whether the member has stopped working is neither here nor there.) 

That said, it still sounds like earmarking/an attachment order rather than a pension sharing order. I'd go back to the administrator noting their confused terminology (i.e. if it really was a pension sharing order rather than an earmarking or attachment order, the pension to the ex-spouse wouldn't just cease on the original member dying) - but mainly to assert that, as they had responsibility for paying the pension to the ex-spouse, they will need to take up the overpayment with the recipient directly. I agree you shouldn't pay out of the estate willy-nilly.

In a non lockdown world, I'd have gone to see her and we could have both been at the end of the phone together.

She needs to fight her own battles on this.