Dismissal and then long garden leave.

TBagpuss

I agree that the letter could have been better worded but it is fairly clear - it says that while they could dismiss straight away, they are choosing instead to dismiss on notice, despite not being under any obligation to allow the notice period.. (bolding mine, below, for clarity)  

Given the above findings, i have lost trust and confidence in you, and it is my decision that you be dismissed on and with effect from 30 April 2021, which will be your last day of employment with xxx.
Accordingly, whilst i am justified in summarily dismissing you for gross misconduct, that is with immediate effect and without any notice under your contract, without prejudice and without being under any legal obligation to do so, i am dismissing you on and with from 30 April 2021, provided all company equipment is returned.
During the period from this letter until 30 April 2021, whilst you remain employed by xxx, you are being placed on garden leave (it then goes on to explain the normal garden leave rules etc) 

General_Grant

Sandtree said:

getmore4less said:

Many  job offers come with conditions like subject to references, might also have DBS checks as a condition.

The general advice is never resign before an offer is unconditional.

Not that relevant here as they are going anyway.

And here lies a problem because others are advising them to state a reference from the current employer cannot be sort until employment is ended and an offer cannot be made unconditional until a reference is received. Less of a problem in this case because there is an end date whether the OP likes it or not but ordinarily the two bits of advice dont work together.

The other issue is if you have a very long notice period, most employers will wait a month for professionals, many will understand 3 month notice periods are common but a former colleague had a 12 month notice period... there was little prospects of potential employers making an unconditional offer 12 months before the start date... a lot could happen with debt, criminal records etc in that timescale. 

As to the OP's letter, it makes little sense and to be honest looks like a template letter with options where they have forgotten to remove a section... dismissed immediately without notice but on a distant future date. What was the notice period? Had they served notice on the date of the letter when would have the last working day been? Before or after the stated date? 

In this thread it was only yksi who suggested that it was "industry standard" not to apply for references until an offer had been made and getmore4less was saying the advice about not resigning until offer was unconditional didn't really apply in the current case.

I don't know which industry yksi is referring to.  In some it is standard to apply for references even before an interview.

bel222

getmore4less said:

If friend  knew they did not fit why have they let it get this far?

When you know you don't fit you fix your behaviour as best you can to align with what is wanted.
Stay  if you can  or move on again if you can't or don't want to 

It's not a case of them letting anything get too far or not fitting in.  Its an 80k+ a year job and they're vastly experienced in the field albeit not with this company and had no inkling of any issues.  They'd been furloughed since last March and in November had specific complaints made by 2 staff under them (out of perhaps 200 or so staff under them), relating back to pre-lockdown times.  Most of them were dismissed in the disciplinary process but a few stuck, hence them being in this situation.  

Anyway thanks all for your input.  It sounds like they've been given a bit of a lifeline with the 2 months notice i guess and they just need to crack on.
Cheers.

Sandtree

General_Grant said:

In this thread it was only yksi who suggested that it was "industry standard" not to apply for references until an offer had been made and getmore4less was saying the advice about not resigning until offer was unconditional didn't really apply in the current case.

I don't know which industry yksi is referring to.  In some it is standard to apply for references even before an interview.

I was less worried about the "industry standard" aspect but the statement that you should ask them not to reference from current employer. In my various lines of work over the years it has been the norm to discuss when it would be appropriate for a reference to be taken before approaching current employer and the norm is to delay it until after you've had the resignation conversation. Some may do informal references before interviews but even then you'd have the discretion not to approach someone at their current place of work unless the candidate has explicitly stated they've already resigned or their manager knows they are looking to leave.

The "do not resign until an offer is unconditional" is exceptionally commonly given as advice on this forum, even if its only been given by one person so far on this thread. Its one that on paper sounds totally sensible but has a host of issues when you think about it for more than a second.

General_Grant

Sandtree said:

General_Grant said:

In this thread it was only yksi who suggested that it was "industry standard" not to apply for references until an offer had been made and getmore4less was saying the advice about not resigning until offer was unconditional didn't really apply in the current case.

I don't know which industry yksi is referring to.  In some it is standard to apply for references even before an interview.

I was less worried about the "industry standard" aspect but the statement that you should ask them not to reference from current employer. In my various lines of work over the years it has been the norm to discuss when it would be appropriate for a reference to be taken before approaching current employer and the norm is to delay it until after you've had the resignation conversation. Some may do informal references before interviews but even then you'd have the discretion not to approach someone at their current place of work unless the candidate has explicitly stated they've already resigned or their manager knows they are looking to leave.

The "do not resign until an offer is unconditional" is exceptionally commonly given as advice on this forum, even if its only been given by one person so far on this thread. Its one that on paper sounds totally sensible but has a host of issues when you think about it for more than a second.

I didn't think this thread was about someone who was otherwise in a secure job but someone who has actually been dismissed.  That changes things.

I hadn't noticed advice in this thread about trying to not allow reference requests to the current employer.  Obviously the manager of the dismissed person knows they are leaving.  
Thinking about the advice of not resigning until unconditional offer is received for three seconds led me to think that it is correct advice.  Simply having a word with your manager, or whoever else was appropriate, doesn't mean you have to leave which actually handing in your resignation does.  If it prompted retaliation on the part of the employer at least they would have to give contractual or statutory notice which could well be more than the employee has to give.

getmore4less

bel222 said:

getmore4less said:

If friend  knew they did not fit why have they let it get this far?

When you know you don't fit you fix your behaviour as best you can to align with what is wanted.
Stay  if you can  or move on again if you can't or don't want to 

It's not a case of them letting anything get too far or not fitting in.  Its an 80k+ a year job and they're vastly experienced in the field albeit not with this company and had no inkling of any issues.  They'd been furloughed since last March and in November had specific complaints made by 2 staff under them (out of perhaps 200 or so staff under them), relating back to pre-lockdown times.  Most of them were dismissed in the disciplinary process but a few stuck, hence them being in this situation.  

Anyway thanks all for your input.  It sounds like they've been given a bit of a lifeline with the 2 months notice i guess and they just need to crack on.
Cheers.

If they are this senior what sort of notice were they on?
As said this may be a play to avoid a claim.
Once you are on the way out, should have been fairly clear during a 3month disciplinary, it is often best to start negotiating a settlement agreement with reference as an exit strategy.
I will go quietly but I need.....

At this level they should be discussing reference anyway and not waiting.

I did think about this though.

I am dismissing you on and with from 30 April 2021, provided all company equipment is returned.
what happens if they keep a company pen(or laptop or car...) do they stay employed indefinitely
or
was there an implied by the end of the week or I will sack you now.

Marcon

bel222 said:

Any thoughts on them resigning during the garden leave period ? Would it change their reason for leaving from dismissal to resignation ? 

They've already been served with notice of dismissal and that is what could be expected to appear in any reference where a potential employer asks for a reference.

bel222

getmore4less said:

bel222 said:

If they are this senior what sort of notice were they on?
As said this may be a play to avoid a claim.
Once you are on the way out, should have been fairly clear during a 3month disciplinary, it is often best to start negotiating a settlement agreement with reference as an exit strategy.
I will go quietly but I need.....

At this level they should be discussing reference anyway and not waiting.

I did think about this though.

I am dismissing you on and with from 30 April 2021, provided all company equipment is returned.
what happens if they keep a company pen(or laptop or car...) do they stay employed indefinitely
or
was there an implied by the end of the week or I will sack you now.

They were on a months notice.  The length of the process wasn't really something that made them think dismissal was on the cards - it was dragged out due to the company stopping operating completely for a period due to covid.
Anyway, acas seem to agree that it could be a play as you say, to avoid a claim, and that they should probably be grateful of the two months garden leave and just get on with finding alternative opportunities.  
Re the bit about returning company equipment, yes it did appear that if everything wasn't returned, they would proceed with gross.  As it turned out, it was only a set of keys, and a surface laptop which had gone back already after suspension in late December.

getmore4less

fare enough, 
At this sort of level I suspect a ET could be career limiting move, in niche sector the exit gracefully to the next place is probably best option.

robatwork

getmore4less said:

I am dismissing you on and with from 30 April 2021, provided all company equipment is returned.
what happens if they keep a company pen(or laptop or car...) do they stay employed indefinitely

This is exactly the phrase that made me think the person writing the letter didn't really know how to write a dismissal letter. It's ambiguous on this point and on the reason for dismissal (ie. will it still be recorded on paperwork as GM, or just M or something else?).

The implication in this phrase is that they have until 30 April 2021 to return equipment. But what if they don't? Double dismissal?
Your friend needs to clarify, although I understand the point is moot as everything has been returned.