DIY pension definition and related questions

AlanP_2

zagfles said:

dunstonh said:

You are not picking the brushes, paint and painting it. You are picking the colour, the vendor and are getting the vendor to do it for you. Vanguard experts have already chosen and pre-packaged the actual investments for you. They based investment choices within a VLS fund on a lot of research from some of the best experts in the field to design their products. You just pick whatever you believe suits you. Or you can pick an interior designer to select the colours for you. Neither is actual “DIY”. And the interior designer will try to get you to pay an annual fee on the paint he chose for you. 

You know that sounds like a load of marketing from someone brainwashed by the church of Vanguard?
All investment funds, whether issued by Vanguard of another fund house, have "experts" that choose and pre-package the actual investments [within the fund] for you.   If you buy an investment fund, you are not micromanaging the investments.   You are making the decision on which investment fund(s) to use.  That decision is not being made for you.    You are also making the decision on what investment platform to use.  That decision is not being made for you.    You are the one that does all the work to put it in place.  That is not being done for you.

Hmm, whereas you sound like someone who is brainwashed by the "church of IFA"

If you choose "experts" to "choose and pre-package" your investments then that is hardly "DIY" just because you chose the investment house. Any more than if you chose an IFA to do the same.

This is all getting a bit academic and irrelevant to the OPs question. Using this logic the only DIY investor is one that chooses and invests directly in company shares, which may be true in the purest sense but so what?

I do some DIY, I bought some ready made shelves and brackets and put them on the wall. A neighbour is a skilled wood worker, he buys raw timber and makes his own shelved and carved brackets, he is also doing DIY but at a purer level than I am. A friend does no DIY and pays a tradesperson to do everything.

zagfles

AlanP_2 said:

zagfles said:

dunstonh said:

You are not picking the brushes, paint and painting it. You are picking the colour, the vendor and are getting the vendor to do it for you. Vanguard experts have already chosen and pre-packaged the actual investments for you. They based investment choices within a VLS fund on a lot of research from some of the best experts in the field to design their products. You just pick whatever you believe suits you. Or you can pick an interior designer to select the colours for you. Neither is actual “DIY”. And the interior designer will try to get you to pay an annual fee on the paint he chose for you. 

You know that sounds like a load of marketing from someone brainwashed by the church of Vanguard?
All investment funds, whether issued by Vanguard of another fund house, have "experts" that choose and pre-package the actual investments [within the fund] for you.   If you buy an investment fund, you are not micromanaging the investments.   You are making the decision on which investment fund(s) to use.  That decision is not being made for you.    You are also making the decision on what investment platform to use.  That decision is not being made for you.    You are the one that does all the work to put it in place.  That is not being done for you.

Hmm, whereas you sound like someone who is brainwashed by the "church of IFA"

If you choose "experts" to "choose and pre-package" your investments then that is hardly "DIY" just because you chose the investment house. Any more than if you chose an IFA to do the same.

This is all getting a bit academic and irrelevant to the OPs question. Using this logic the only DIY investor is one that chooses and invests directly in company shares, which may be true in the purest sense but so what?

I do some DIY, I bought some ready made shelves and brackets and put them on the wal. A neighbour is a skilled wood worker, he buys raw timber and makes his own shelved and carved brackets, he is also doing DIY but at a purer level than I am. 

Well yes, clearly there's various levels of DIY.

Choosing to invest directly in shares and bonds (your neighbour)

Choosing a selection of single asset funds/ITs (you)

Choosing multi-asset funds (getting someone else to put up the shelves up but you decide where they go & how many you need)

Choosing an IFA to choose for you (getting an interior designer to decide on the how many shelves you need and where they should go)

I would say only the first two meet the criteria for "DIY" by most peoples' definition.

The Monty Python colonel will be making an appearance shortly...

AlanP_2

1 & 2 in a shelves context, but 1, 2 & 3 in an investment sense I would say.

Linton

zagfles said:

AlanP_2 said:

zagfles said:

dunstonh said:

You are not picking the brushes, paint and painting it. You are picking the colour, the vendor and are getting the vendor to do it for you. Vanguard experts have already chosen and pre-packaged the actual investments for you. They based investment choices within a VLS fund on a lot of research from some of the best experts in the field to design their products. You just pick whatever you believe suits you. Or you can pick an interior designer to select the colours for you. Neither is actual “DIY”. And the interior designer will try to get you to pay an annual fee on the paint he chose for you. 

You know that sounds like a load of marketing from someone brainwashed by the church of Vanguard?
All investment funds, whether issued by Vanguard of another fund house, have "experts" that choose and pre-package the actual investments [within the fund] for you.   If you buy an investment fund, you are not micromanaging the investments.   You are making the decision on which investment fund(s) to use.  That decision is not being made for you.    You are also making the decision on what investment platform to use.  That decision is not being made for you.    You are the one that does all the work to put it in place.  That is not being done for you.

Hmm, whereas you sound like someone who is brainwashed by the "church of IFA"

If you choose "experts" to "choose and pre-package" your investments then that is hardly "DIY" just because you chose the investment house. Any more than if you chose an IFA to do the same.

This is all getting a bit academic and irrelevant to the OPs question. Using this logic the only DIY investor is one that chooses and invests directly in company shares, which may be true in the purest sense but so what?

I do some DIY, I bought some ready made shelves and brackets and put them on the wal. A neighbour is a skilled wood worker, he buys raw timber and makes his own shelved and carved brackets, he is also doing DIY but at a purer level than I am. 

Well yes, clearly there's various levels of DIY.

Choosing to invest directly in shares and bonds (your neighbour)

Choosing a selection of single asset funds/ITs (you)

Choosing multi-asset funds (getting someone else to put up the shelves up but you decide where they go & how many you need)

Choosing an IFA to choose for you (getting an interior designer to decide on the how many shelves you need and where they should go)

I would say only the first two meet the criteria for "DIY" by most peoples' definition.

The Monty Python colonel will be making an appearance shortly...

And you think buying shares from someone who wants to sell them on an online platform is real DiY investing?  No, I'm a purist, in my view that is mere speculation. A real DiY nvestor is someone who negotiates with the owner to acquire a significant personal stake in a company in exchange for capital for future expansion.

We need a term for someone who chooses not to use an advisor.  The term that most people understand is DiY.  Let's leave it at that.

dunstonh

Hmm, whereas you sound like someone who is brainwashed by the "church of IFA" 

At least I have a brain to be brainwashed 

zagfles

Linton said:

zagfles said:

AlanP_2 said:

zagfles said:

dunstonh said:

You are not picking the brushes, paint and painting it. You are picking the colour, the vendor and are getting the vendor to do it for you. Vanguard experts have already chosen and pre-packaged the actual investments for you. They based investment choices within a VLS fund on a lot of research from some of the best experts in the field to design their products. You just pick whatever you believe suits you. Or you can pick an interior designer to select the colours for you. Neither is actual “DIY”. And the interior designer will try to get you to pay an annual fee on the paint he chose for you. 

You know that sounds like a load of marketing from someone brainwashed by the church of Vanguard?
All investment funds, whether issued by Vanguard of another fund house, have "experts" that choose and pre-package the actual investments [within the fund] for you.   If you buy an investment fund, you are not micromanaging the investments.   You are making the decision on which investment fund(s) to use.  That decision is not being made for you.    You are also making the decision on what investment platform to use.  That decision is not being made for you.    You are the one that does all the work to put it in place.  That is not being done for you.

Hmm, whereas you sound like someone who is brainwashed by the "church of IFA"

If you choose "experts" to "choose and pre-package" your investments then that is hardly "DIY" just because you chose the investment house. Any more than if you chose an IFA to do the same.

This is all getting a bit academic and irrelevant to the OPs question. Using this logic the only DIY investor is one that chooses and invests directly in company shares, which may be true in the purest sense but so what?

I do some DIY, I bought some ready made shelves and brackets and put them on the wal. A neighbour is a skilled wood worker, he buys raw timber and makes his own shelved and carved brackets, he is also doing DIY but at a purer level than I am. 

Well yes, clearly there's various levels of DIY.

Choosing to invest directly in shares and bonds (your neighbour)

Choosing a selection of single asset funds/ITs (you)

Choosing multi-asset funds (getting someone else to put up the shelves up but you decide where they go & how many you need)

Choosing an IFA to choose for you (getting an interior designer to decide on the how many shelves you need and where they should go)

I would say only the first two meet the criteria for "DIY" by most peoples' definition.

The Monty Python colonel will be making an appearance shortly...

And you think buying shares from someone who wants to sell them on an online platform is real DiY investing?  No, I'm a purist, in my view that is mere speculation. A real DiY nvestor is someone who negotiates with the owner to acquire a significant personal stake in a company in exchange for capital for future expansion.

We need a term for someone who chooses not to use an advisor.  The term that most people understand is DiY.  Let's leave it at that.

As someone just posted in another thread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_cliché  - a good example that should be in the list!

BTW do you think someone who has a workplace DC pension scheme and uses the default investment is a "DIY investor"?

What about someone in a public sector DB scheme? No adviser, so they're DIY too presumably

As for the OP - don't get hung up of the definition of "DIY", people define it differently as you can see, there are various levels of how in depth you want to manage your pension investments, what level is defined as the cut off for "DIY" isn't really important.

aekostas

Hi all. Many thanks for all those answers so quickly. NottinghamKnight asked about the level, it's around £35,000, I am not sure if that's large or small in the context, Mordko and others.

dunstonh thanks for picking up, as it was your initial comments that got me on the forum. You had written of "a low cost platform"; how low is Vanguard, what goes lower? And to ask perhaps a radical question, do I have to have a platform? For my current policy they just send me a letter once a year and I can write to them (ink and paper) if I want to make a change (e.g. pick another of the 10 funds available to me); is this a "platform" of 1998 standards? Nothing is guaranteed in the end, by the way.

Thanks also for the warning about picking a good investment. I find it very hard to compare funds, and I drown in the deluge of options that one can see online. In one instance I liked a fund and, though listed on the provider's site (I presume for the benefit of existing customers) it turned out it is no longer available; very confusing. So I decided to go with something higher level, stop short of robo in this instance (perhaps), start with the costs as an indication of whether they care about me at all, and seek online reviews for the actual product.

[Deleted User]

dunstonh said:

Dox said:

dunstonh said:

I understand these are investments and they may go up and down, so I am focussing on charges in the first instance.

Charges are a secondary concern.  Not a primary concern.  Where you invest and how you invest is more important.  Charges are certainly important but not the first thing you should be looking at.

But charges are the one certainty and as such are important, especially here where the personal pension was set up in 1998 and could be full of all sorts of old-fashioned charging nasties. 

As I said, charges are important.  But what if that 1998 plan has higher charges than a modern plan but has a guaranteed minimum maturity value or GAR?    Yes, it could be an old "nasty" plan but it could be an old gem of a plan.  Charges dont come into play at that stage. They come in later when you compare the pros and cons.
If charges were a primary concern, then you would only stay in a savings account with its nil implicit charge.  You would never invest as all other investment options would fail at the first filter of "lowest charge".

You are not picking the brushes, paint and painting it. You are picking the colour, the vendor and are getting the vendor to do it for you. Vanguard experts have already chosen and pre-packaged the actual investments for you. They based investment choices within a VLS fund on a lot of research from some of the best experts in the field to design their products. You just pick whatever you believe suits you. Or you can pick an interior designer to select the colours for you. Neither is actual “DIY”. And the interior designer will try to get you to pay an annual fee on the paint he chose for you. 

You know that sounds like a load of marketing from someone brainwashed by the church of Vanguard?
All investment funds, whether issued by Vanguard of another fund house, have "experts" ...

I don’t think reading lots of books on the subject from the leading experts and selecting an informed investment strategy qualifies as “brainwashed”.
I do think that John Bogle did more for the individual investor than anyone else in the world. If you think that’s “brainwashed”, you should address your criticism directly to Warren Buffett. I used his words.
It is true that Vanguard isn’t the only game in town. There are other large and reputable providers of low cost well designed funds. 

dunstonh

dunstonh thanks for picking up, as it was your initial comments that got me on the forum. You had written of "a low cost platform"; how low is Vanguard, what goes lower? And to ask perhaps a radical question, do I have to have a platform? For my current policy they just send me a letter once a year and I can write to them (ink and paper) if I want to make a change (e.g. pick another of the 10 funds available to me); is this a "platform" of 1998 standards? Nothing is guaranteed in the end, by the way.

Investment platforms started in the early 2000s.   You dont have to have a platform but it is the modern way of doing things. There are not many old style options still available on the individual pension side.     What you have from 1998 wont be a platform but a provider.
Vanguard's pricing is at the low end.   So, dont worry about that.

[Deleted User]

If you use a fund, you're not really "Doing it Yourself," obviously your fund manager is managing your investment.
Funny how many flatter themselves on this subject.