Disciplinary advice

gilly58

Why should she leave if she has done nothing wrong, the manager values her highly and she gets on well with everyone, 
Why should someone's lies cost someone their job
You could not dismiss someone of stealing without having proof surely just because you beliefed it was probable 

Comms69

gilly58 said:

Why should she leave if she has done nothing wrong, the manager values her highly and she gets on well with everyone, 
Why should someone's lies cost someone their job
You could not dismiss someone of stealing without having proof surely just because you beliefed it was probable 

Yes you could literally do that.

The manager values her highly, but is putting her through a disciplinary process?...

Exodi

To be honest, I think your daughter getting one of her mates to say she did nothing wrong carries little weight - let's remember that one of the accusations is that she slates this person to other staff members.

I know she's family but has your daughter offered any explanation of why she thinks this employee, entirely unprovoked, has gone to management to make false accusations that she's not not working, being insulted and slated to other staff members? It all seems very random with no agenda if nothing had happened?

I say this coming from a large family (I have 6 sisters!). The amount of times I heard 'sorry I didn't see you ask me to come home, I haven't looked at my phone all day' or 'sorry I'm back late, the bus didn't show up for an hour again' or 'I'm just going round my friends for a quiet sleepover' (cue returning hungover the next afternoon) has made me quite sceptical I'm afraid. In potentially similar context to the above, I would hear the phrase 'no, I didn't do XYZ, ask my mate!' ad nauseum.

Undervalued

gilly58 said:

Why should she leave if she has done nothing wrong, the manager values her highly and she gets on well with everyone, 
Why should someone's lies cost someone their job
You could not dismiss someone of stealing without having proof surely just because you beliefed it was probable 

Yes, you can.
As I keep saying it is not a court of law.
In a criminal court guilt must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt - Lets call that 95% certain.
In a civil court cases are decided on the balance of probability - Lets call that 51% certain.
In an employer's disciplinary all that is needed is "a reasonable belief" - Some would say that can be even less than 50% depending on the circumstance.

Providing the employers belief was reasonable at the time, the dismissal remains fair in law even if evidence later emerges that the employee was completely innocent! Sorry, but that is the law. 

gilly58

The manager is not the one who started the investigation, she is happy to but a good word in for my daughter
Firms I have worked in have always wanted to be fairly certain before carry out disciplinarys, ie cctv evidence 

Undervalued

gilly58 said:

The manager is not the one who started the investigation, she is happy to but a good word in for my daughter
Firms I have worked in have always wanted to be fairly certain before carry out disciplinarys, ie cctv evidence 

Yes, many are very cautious.

We are just telling you the legal position or, if you like, the worst case scenario.

A "good word" may help but ultimately she can't tell then what your daughter did or didn't say to somebody else unless she was actually present. She might be able to say "She seems to me an excellent employee and I would be surprised if she behaved as has been alleged" but she can't say for certain that she didn't.

TBagpuss

As others have said, the only obligation which the employer has is to have a fair process and to have a reasonable belief that the staff-member being disciplined has behaved in the way which is alleged.

In your daughter's case, the employer could potentially discipline her on the basis of one person's statement, if they feel that that person is more reliable / more likely to be telling the truth that your daughter. Similarly, they can chose to put more weight on what the accuser says than on someone else who backs up your daughter - if they reasonably believe that it is fair and reasonable to do so. 

That said, if your daughter is able to provide a witness who saw / heard what happened then the employer may well take the view that there is not evidence to support disciplinary action being taken. And equally, they may decide that there are grounds t discipline her but that the appropriate disciplinary action stops short of dismissing her. If her work is generally good, and her manager supports her, then those things may well result in her keeping her job even if the finding at the disciplinary is that she did make the comments . but none of us can give you or your daughter any guarantees, and of course you only know what your daughter has told you, so you don't necessarily have all of the information which the employer will have in dealing with the issue. 

Pajaro

Comms69 said:

There's 2 options here:

1: Your daughter isnt good at her job, therefore not valued and they're looking for a reason to get rid of her

2: the employer isnt a good employer, and for whatever reason believes employee B, and is looking to get rid of your daughter

In both cases the key factor needs to be, is this worth my time and effort and losing a reference

No, sometimes the employer wants to get rid of someone as they are too good at their job!
It is because that person disturbs the "balance" in the office.

I think as long as the employer does not have enough concrete evidence to dismiss the daughter, the employer really won't dare do it since the employee has been there for more than 2 years. Most employers are scared of the damage to their reputation an employment tribunal may cause

theoretica

Could they: YES

Will they: MAYBE

If the company is in trouble or for other reasons wants to get rid of people then maybe they will take advantage of this as an excuse, and gathering supporters will do your daughter little good. But, what hasn't been mentioned is think how you would feel if your daughter went to management with a complaint about another member of staff and they didn't even investigate?  She may just be facing the other side of that - maybe the result will be against the other person for making accusations.

[Deleted User]

As painful as it might be, you should consider whether it's possible that your daughter has treated this other person badly - and that the manager has done the same/is protecting your daughter.
If so, this would be a great opportunity for your daughter to learn to become a better person, and treat others with respect.