Ripple Energy wind farm?

Martyn1981

Hot off the presses (or the Youtube's):

World's First Crowdfunded Wind Turbine?

QrizB

Martyn1981 said:

Hot off the presses (or the Youtube's):

World's First Crowdfunded Wind Turbine?

At around the half-way point they explain the payback process; it's exactly as we've discussed here and acts as a stabilising force on Co-Op members' electricity bills.

Reed_Richards

superbob_2000 said:

This is the part I'm nervous about.
Why involve energy suppliers at all? Can't Ripple pay shareholders directly and remove the requirement to be with certain providers which may become expensive suppliers in the future.

Thing is, they could act like a normal company and pay a dividend to shareholders.  Unless you receive a lot of income from dividends it would be tax-free.  But instead you are stuck with octopus as your electricity supplier.  This may benefit Ripple and Octopus but I cannot see that it benefits the investors.  And we don't even know what tax treatment the Inland Revenue will apply to this  income.      

Meatballs

Reed_Richards said:

superbob_2000 said:

This is the part I'm nervous about.
Why involve energy suppliers at all? Can't Ripple pay shareholders directly and remove the requirement to be with certain providers which may become expensive suppliers in the future.

Thing is, they could act like a normal company and pay a dividend to shareholders.  Unless you receive a lot of income from dividends it would be tax-free.  But instead you are stuck with octopus as your electricity supplier.  This may benefit Ripple and Octopus but I cannot see that it benefits the investors.  And we don't even know what tax treatment the Inland Revenue will apply to this  income.      

20/25 years stuck with the same energy supplier, even a good one like octopus is a big commitment 😅

QrizB

Meatballs said:

Reed_Richards said:

superbob_2000 said:

This is the part I'm nervous about.
Why involve energy suppliers at all? Can't Ripple pay shareholders directly and remove the requirement to be with certain providers which may become expensive suppliers in the future.

Thing is, they could act like a normal company and pay a dividend to shareholders.  Unless you receive a lot of income from dividends it would be tax-free.  But instead you are stuck with octopus as your electricity supplier.  This may benefit Ripple and Octopus but I cannot see that it benefits the investors.  And we don't even know what tax treatment the Inland Revenue will apply to this  income.      

20/25 years stuck with the same energy supplier, even a good one like octopus is a big commitment 😅

If enough of the co-op members don't like the model, they can change it. But I'm guessing that a 4p/kWh discount on electricity will be enough that Octopus will almost always be the cheapest option.

chamelion

QrizB said:

Meatballs said:

Reed_Richards said:

superbob_2000 said:

This is the part I'm nervous about.
Why involve energy suppliers at all? Can't Ripple pay shareholders directly and remove the requirement to be with certain providers which may become expensive suppliers in the future.

Thing is, they could act like a normal company and pay a dividend to shareholders.  Unless you receive a lot of income from dividends it would be tax-free.  But instead you are stuck with octopus as your electricity supplier.  This may benefit Ripple and Octopus but I cannot see that it benefits the investors.  And we don't even know what tax treatment the Inland Revenue will apply to this  income.      

20/25 years stuck with the same energy supplier, even a good one like octopus is a big commitment 😅

If enough of the co-op members don't like the model, they can change it. But I'm guessing that a 4p/kWh discount on electricity will be enough that Octopus will almost always be the cheapest option.

Scenario 1 octopus competitor 15p octopus 14p + 4p discount. This is great and works with ROI calculation.

Scenario 2 octopus competitor 15p octopus 18p +4p discount. So in this case you've paid a huge up front investment to save 1p per kWh. All of a sudden ROI becomes decades or more. 

Scenario 3 competitor 15p octopus 19p. ROI is never and I can't dispose my investment.

The ROI in this investment only works and is trustworthy if I can go to any provider, not be limited to two. I'm sure they're working on it but right now this isn't an investment, it's a giant deposit. A true investment would allow me to cash out too which I can't. 

I'm quite surprised that people are jumping on this to be honest...

superbob_2000

I really wanted this to be a good scheme, but the power company tie in just makes it a huge financial risk. 
I get that some are joining on an ethical/green basis, but it's not for me without a clear route to a ROI too.
I've been with Octopus for 3 years and like them, but who knows what will happen over 2 or 3 decades. 
Looks like I'm out unless something changes. 

QrizB

I'm pleased to see you're doing the sort of "due diligence" that should preceed any investment decision.

If more people were this engaged with their investments (and other aspects of life, eg. utility bills) the MSE forums would see far fewer disappointed posts.

Petriix

QrizB said:

Meatballs said:

Reed_Richards said:

superbob_2000 said:

This is the part I'm nervous about.
Why involve energy suppliers at all? Can't Ripple pay shareholders directly and remove the requirement to be with certain providers which may become expensive suppliers in the future.

Thing is, they could act like a normal company and pay a dividend to shareholders.  Unless you receive a lot of income from dividends it would be tax-free.  But instead you are stuck with octopus as your electricity supplier.  This may benefit Ripple and Octopus but I cannot see that it benefits the investors.  And we don't even know what tax treatment the Inland Revenue will apply to this  income.      

20/25 years stuck with the same energy supplier, even a good one like octopus is a big commitment 😅

If enough of the co-op members don't like the model, they can change it. But I'm guessing that a 4p/kWh discount on electricity will be enough that Octopus will almost always be the cheapest option.

chamelion said:

QrizB said:

Meatballs said:

Reed_Richards said:

superbob_2000 said:

This is the part I'm nervous about.
Why involve energy suppliers at all? Can't Ripple pay shareholders directly and remove the requirement to be with certain providers which may become expensive suppliers in the future.

Thing is, they could act like a normal company and pay a dividend to shareholders.  Unless you receive a lot of income from dividends it would be tax-free.  But instead you are stuck with octopus as your electricity supplier.  This may benefit Ripple and Octopus but I cannot see that it benefits the investors.  And we don't even know what tax treatment the Inland Revenue will apply to this  income.      

20/25 years stuck with the same energy supplier, even a good one like octopus is a big commitment 😅

If enough of the co-op members don't like the model, they can change it. But I'm guessing that a 4p/kWh discount on electricity will be enough that Octopus will almost always be the cheapest option.

Scenario 1 octopus competitor 15p octopus 14p + 4p discount. This is great and works with ROI calculation.

Scenario 2 octopus competitor 15p octopus 18p +4p discount. So in this case you've paid a huge up front investment to save 1p per kWh. All of a sudden ROI becomes decades or more. 

Scenario 3 competitor 15p octopus 19p. ROI is never and I can't dispose my investment.

The ROI in this investment only works and is trustworthy if I can go to any provider, not be limited to two. I'm sure they're working on it but right now this isn't an investment, it's a giant deposit. A true investment would allow me to cash out too which I can't. 

I'm quite surprised that people are jumping on this to be honest...

You're misunderstanding how it works. You don't get a 'per kWh' discount off your Octopus bill. You get a credit towards your Octopus bill based on the 'per kWh' profit that the wind farm makes from your share of its generation...

I'm unsure of the exact details of the turbine and capacity factor, but take a typical 2.5Mw turbine with 33% capacity and it will generate ~ 7.25GWh per year. My 900W share would generate ~ 2600kWh per year. The profit on that at current prices would be 8-10p per kWh so ~ £208-260 per year which would be applied as credit to my Octopus bill. Later that profit might fall to £100 per year, whatever. That 900W share costs me £1500 so, even at that lower profit, I'm still getting an ROI of 15 years.

At the moment, Octopus are the cheapest supplier for my usage (Go with an EV and soon to be installed home battery). I would be very surprised if they stopped having a competitive tariff in the near future. Obviously it's not guaranteed how long that will last, but there's nothing to stop Ripple finding other, more competitive suppliers in the future.

You're right that a £100 credit isn't worth anything if your bill is £100 more that with a different supplier. But you seem to be assuming that we'll definitely be returning to the days of cheap electricity. It's obviously a gamble, but it looks favourable right now.

Meatballs

Petriix said:

QrizB said:

Meatballs said:

Reed_Richards said:

superbob_2000 said:

This is the part I'm nervous about.
Why involve energy suppliers at all? Can't Ripple pay shareholders directly and remove the requirement to be with certain providers which may become expensive suppliers in the future.

Thing is, they could act like a normal company and pay a dividend to shareholders.  Unless you receive a lot of income from dividends it would be tax-free.  But instead you are stuck with octopus as your electricity supplier.  This may benefit Ripple and Octopus but I cannot see that it benefits the investors.  And we don't even know what tax treatment the Inland Revenue will apply to this  income.      

20/25 years stuck with the same energy supplier, even a good one like octopus is a big commitment 😅

If enough of the co-op members don't like the model, they can change it. But I'm guessing that a 4p/kWh discount on electricity will be enough that Octopus will almost always be the cheapest option.

chamelion said:

QrizB said:

Meatballs said:

Reed_Richards said:

superbob_2000 said:

This is the part I'm nervous about.
Why involve energy suppliers at all? Can't Ripple pay shareholders directly and remove the requirement to be with certain providers which may become expensive suppliers in the future.

Thing is, they could act like a normal company and pay a dividend to shareholders.  Unless you receive a lot of income from dividends it would be tax-free.  But instead you are stuck with octopus as your electricity supplier.  This may benefit Ripple and Octopus but I cannot see that it benefits the investors.  And we don't even know what tax treatment the Inland Revenue will apply to this  income.      

20/25 years stuck with the same energy supplier, even a good one like octopus is a big commitment 😅

If enough of the co-op members don't like the model, they can change it. But I'm guessing that a 4p/kWh discount on electricity will be enough that Octopus will almost always be the cheapest option.

Scenario 1 octopus competitor 15p octopus 14p + 4p discount. This is great and works with ROI calculation.

Scenario 2 octopus competitor 15p octopus 18p +4p discount. So in this case you've paid a huge up front investment to save 1p per kWh. All of a sudden ROI becomes decades or more. 

Scenario 3 competitor 15p octopus 19p. ROI is never and I can't dispose my investment.

The ROI in this investment only works and is trustworthy if I can go to any provider, not be limited to two. I'm sure they're working on it but right now this isn't an investment, it's a giant deposit. A true investment would allow me to cash out too which I can't. 

I'm quite surprised that people are jumping on this to be honest...

You're misunderstanding how it works. You don't get a 'per kWh' discount off your Octopus bill. You get a credit towards your Octopus bill based on the 'per kWh' profit that the wind farm makes from your share of its generation...

I'm unsure of the exact details of the turbine and capacity factor, but take a typical 2.5Mw turbine with 33% capacity and it will generate ~ 7.25GWh per year. My 900W share would generate ~ 2600kWh per year. The profit on that at current prices would be 8-10p per kWh so ~ £208-260 per year which would be applied as credit to my Octopus bill. Later that profit might fall to £100 per year, whatever. That 900W share costs me £1500 so, even at that lower profit, I'm still getting an ROI of 15 years.

At the moment, Octopus are the cheapest supplier for my usage (Go with an EV and soon to be installed home battery). I would be very surprised if they stopped having a competitive tariff in the near future. Obviously it's not guaranteed how long that will last, but there's nothing to stop Ripple finding other, more competitive suppliers in the future.

You're right that a £100 credit isn't worth anything if your bill is £100 more that with a different supplier. But you seem to be assuming that we'll definitely be returning to the days of cheap electricity. It's obviously a gamble, but it looks favourable right now.

There's nothing to stop them bringing on board new suppliers except it's probably a massive administrative headache for a very small number of customers. If it was easy then they would have more already...

Hopefully they can bring in other Kraken suppliers like EonNext easily but there's also a risk suppliers stop supporting the project too over 20 odd years.