Dream Retirement Property - but can we afford it?

cfw1994

Well, my initial reaction would be "go for it - YOLO" !!
However.....I suspect you have too many doubts for it to *really* be the dream home.
A dream home should not have swathes of caveats.....and whilst Grade II listed does imply something beautiful, I speak from experience when I say it very easily can and most likely will become a 'money pit'.    I suspect your finances will allow for that, but nonetheless, if your hopes are for travel ahead, you may find those somewhat scuppered.   Financially I would not be concerned with nephews etc....live your life, and if that means going for it - go for it!

We had a buyer for our modern house and an offer in on a beautiful country pile some years back....then we had a moment of realisation that whilst it was lovely, it did need work....a lot of work.....and that work would cost a LOT.   
Added to which we heard wind of a new estate backing on to it, we caused much grief and backed out of it all.   Extended ours twice since, and it is super low maintenance now and will be easy to lock up when we decide to take off down under for a 2 month trip in the future!
I appreciate you DO need to find something, but IMHO, & with regret, I don't think this sounds like it to me.  
Prove me wrong: go for it: I wish you all the best!

atush

DairyQueen 

If both properties were sold then the immediate cash liquidity issue would go away.  As you say, a short-term mortgage would also solve that issue.

It's the ongoing affordability that concerns me most. No idea how much the insurance and annual maintenance would be but suspect around an extra £10kp.a. Will ask the vendors later this week.

I don't think it will take much to talk me out of buying this house but I want to be sure the I'm not being overly negative about the running costs. It is a truly lovely house but very different stretching financially at this age than if you are in your 40s and, right now, I'm not sure how much of a stretch it would be.

I am going to talk you out of it.  The last thing you need in retirement esp if you wont make old bones, a a grade 2 listed heavy maintenance dream home.  Find another dream home a little cheaper and easier to maintain.

DairyQueen

crv1963 said:

Several things spring to mind, I'm not going to comment on the affordability as only you and Mr DQ can decide on how much you want to spend maintaining a listed house.

1) If it ticks all of your boxes (jointly) then why not take the plunge? 

We have our dream home, it probably is someone elses nightmare property- each to their own. We have spent a small fortune preparing it for our retirement, and have more building works to come. When we've finished we'll have spent more than its' resale value on the house and garden. That for us does not matter, it will be as we want and we will (hopefully) be able to enjoy it well into retirement, with enough space to accommodate our hobbies and interests without tripping over and interrupting each other. Mrs CRV now has a large dedicated room for sewing without having to clear the table before we eat!

Our thoughts are the additional space and room add to the saleability rather than the value! 

2) It is all very well inheritance planning and very generous of you but you have worked for it so should enjoy the benefits. You are both unlikely to spend everything so there will even if subject to care home fees be something left over! 

We've told my sons and our nieces that whatever is left when we go is simply split 4 ways, excepting a few personal items which stay within the respective spouses family. My youngest getting the first choice of the jukeboxes, oldest niece first choice of the sewing machines!

3) Lockdown has made an awful lot of people review what they do, where they live and what they now want from life, if space and peace and quiet are your goal, and IMHO travel opportunities are limited for probably quite a while then diverting one budget to supplement another makes sense.

It may sound opportunist but we've both worked additional shifts to save into pensions and spend on our home, with the unexpected bonus that finally stopping work may be able to be brought forward for us. We haven't had time to enjoy our home or time together but can see the benefit of our labour as we return home. 

I hope Mr DQ enjoys gardening, we have just shy of a quarter of an acre on several different levels and lots of hedges and it takes some time to maintain. In our retirement plans we've included an amount from income to pay for gardening services to keep these in order. Mum age 81 has over the past few years had someone in to cut her hedges and hang wallpaper, otherwise she remains able to do everything she wants, at a slower pace I'm sure but she says time is what she has to spend!

4) I had an uncle who moved out of London when he retired, bought a 7 bedroomed house from the proceeds of his detached London house, it is listed and he tried to future proof it. Since his death some years ago my aunt still lives in it and says she loves the place but has to pay to keep it and the four acres of garden to a decent standard. She's now 84 and annually goes abroad for 2-3 months.

So it can work out.

Hope my ramblings help in your deliberations!

Great post; thank you. I have been following your retirement story with great interest across several threads.

I am at the stage where, if I can satisfy myself that it's affordable, then we will go for it. My travel bug has long been satisfied although Mr DQ's bucket list is still fluid. His travel opportunities have been more business-driven so he must decide whether this house is worth scaling back travel plans as the travel budget will be a likely source for cuts in order to pay higher housing costs.

The garden is one-level and mostly lawn, hedges and trees (a relief). It will require a sit-on mower but this is the kind of chore that Mr DQ relishes. I have a good working relationship with a local tree surgeon and a couple of visits each year should keep the trees and hedges in decent shape. A smallish increase in the budget but not too significant.

Pots and weeds will be down to me but that's the kind of gardening I enjoy.

It will be a nightmare to clean as we age but local ties suggest I will be able to secure the excellent services of parents' cleaner to help. Another cost but worth every penny. At least it isn't thatched.

The house has 5 beds, 3 baths, cloakroom, 4 receptions, decent-sized kitchen, 3 staircases, utility and boot room. Plus garage, workshop and cart lodge. It's much too big but we recently realised that one end (own staircase) can be used as a 2-bed annexe. This will accommodate visiting family/guests in privacy and comfort. The other 3 beds/2 baths (own staircase) will create a master suite for us and will provide the absolute luxury of a dressing room and bathroom each.

I could have my own snug and Mr DQ a generous-sized office. That leaves a living and dining room. The only thing missing is a garden room/conservatory.

All that space. I would be in house-heaven. This is likely to be the only chance we have to secure the dream house at a remotely affordable price.

Second viewing tomorrow. Suitably masked-and-gloved and, this time, conducted by the owners. This is my chance to grill them about the insurance and maintenance costs.

Fingers crossed.

bluenose1

Good luck with your viewing. Reading this thread I get the impression your heart will rule your head on this one. Not criticising as I would be exactly the same.
Sometimes we don’t do what others would consider the most sensible thing, I suppose If it does get too much you can sell in the future, at least you will have tried it.

We moved  February this year from a semi near a very busy main road  to a detached house in a  quiet road near the coast.  Still feel like I am on holiday and every day count my blessings in living in a nice house in a lovely area.  My only regret is I didn’t do it earlier. 

Looking forward to your next update!!

DairyQueen

Pile_o_stone said:

coyrls said:

Pile_o_stone said:

We have a lovely looking grade 2 listed home built circa 1750. It has 400mm thick sandstone walls, exposed beams, large bedrooms and reception rooms and large gardens and we are beginning to find it a huge burden and we just about in our 50s. The last thing I'd advise someone looking to retire would be the money-pit that is an old home in large grounds. We are looking to downsize and build/buy an eco home with small or zero utility bills, no damp, no drafts, no cold rooms, no huge heating bills, no isolation from being away from people. No stress every time we spot another crack in the wall, no expensive tradesmen specialised in Lime mortar, etc. etc.

From your post, it sounds like the issue is that you are apart from your OH. With the money you have now, you could buy a nice, comfortable eco house and retire today. Enjoy the hard work you have put in now rather than later - don't put it off and don't buy a money pit that will just cause you stress! 

Maybe DairyQueen has put an offer in, you could be ruining your chances of a sale!

Haha, I really need to change my sales patter! 
(Actually we are not selling just yet, but the plan is to downsize once the nest is empty).

DairyQueen said:

AnotherJoe said:

DairyQueen said:

The property is listed (Grade II) and it’s large.

Strike One.

Madness to buy as a retirement home but this is our dream home.

The cost of maintenance and insurance is likely to add at least £10kp.a. to our non-discretionary expenses.

Strike Two.

Our planned starting ‘number’ was around £45kp.a. from 2021 to include a generous holiday allowance and a lot of fat. This property would eat all of the fat and (I suspect) the holiday allowance if I was widowed

Three strikes.

I entirely fail to see why this is a dream home, sounds like a nightmare  to me, but then again I also fail to see why you both are continuing to work when you have limited life expectancy (genuinely sorry to hear that  )

Wake up before you sleepwalk into a nightmare house.

Retire now, into a house that isn't a whacking big boat anchor on your truncated retirement plans

Yep, the common-sense thing would be to buy a new 4-bed bungie (UPVC, triple-glazed, heat pump, solar panels). The dream definitely isn't this kind of financial commitment. Problem is that 'sensible' has always been my middle-name and I am in danger of being sensible once too often. That's why I seek a range of well-informed opinions.

The dream is space, peace, privacy, character, fields and trees. These are highly sought-after and only the building's antiquity and listed status prevents an extra £100k on the price. If this was a new barn conversion or of conventional construction the London escapees would be in a bidding war. I can't overestimate the extent to which lockdown has impacted our local market. We are smack-bang in the price range, and seeking the property type, most requested by Londoners. The market was crazy before the SDLT reduction was announced, now it's a bloodbath.

Mr DQ continues to work because he enjoys it and he would be hard-pressed to keep himself occupied in tiny home otherwise. He earns well and is able to pick his clients and that's a great position for him. As a former weekend visitor he has yet to establish a life here and will likely take some time to do so. Incentive to stop working will increase when we are settled in a home that gives us pleasure and roots. Yes, it could be a financial nightmare but isn't the potential pleasure worth the risk?

I'm not sure the only options available to you are 'small retirement bungalow on a housing estate' and 'mansion house in 50 acres of arable and mixed woodland'. If your criteria is to have a reasonably large house and garden then I'm sure these are available.

As far as your OH is concerned, perhaps he's handy and would relish the challenge of renovating an old house? I know I did but that interest has waned after 10 years and lime burned arms, broken fingers and £150k poured into a house for £30k financial gain.

Anyway, you asked the question and the direction of travel from forumites seems to be 'don't touch it with a bargepole', and yet you are unmoved. I'm not sure why you asked the question, but hey ho it's your life so good luck with the purchase of your old house, and welcome to the "Money Pit Owners Club"!

Not yet unmoved. To add to the cons Mr DQ is to DIY what elephants are to tap-dancing, and I'm not much better.

Not all contributors are anti but it's noted that those with personal experience are largely amongst the gainsayers.

Around 20 years ago I owned a small, listed cottage. Thatched and lime mortared so your experience resonates. During my 5-year tenure the thatch was replaced and one of the outside walls needed a major repair. The latter is a painful recollection, unlike the former. The house insulation was brilliant - cool in summer, warm in winter but maybe that was a product of (small) size.

I have also owned an unlisted, extended cottage which retained the original lime walls. Whilst on hols for 3 weeks the boiler sprang a leak and discharged several 100 litres of water into the foundations. Most of this was taken-up by the lime walls. I'll leave the remedial work to your imagination.

Current tiny house is  a Victorian workers cottage with large extension. Two walls are rendered. Turns out they had used the wrong render mix during the renovation. Cue: extensive cracks and damp through the walls. That was a £5k repair job.

I can't claim ignorance of the travails of owning an old home but nor can I imagine living in something built after the turn of the 20th century. Having said that, common sense may prevail. Problem is that newer (affordable) houses in secluded locations are rarer then hen's teeth in this area. Most tend to be on the fringe of villages and, if overlooking fields, are at serious risk of development encroachment.  Within 10 years they will likely be swallowed by the next generation housing estate.

Tomorrow will be decision time (second viewing).

Spreadsheetman

OldMusicGuy said:

Sounds like this place will be great for a few years and then become a potential burden. We were planning to downsize and move into a "dream home", ok it was a new build but it was in a beautiful position in a small village, surrounded by fields, big garden and quite large. Also a chalet bungalow, with 2 beds upstairs but also downstairs bedrooms and a bathroom. It was also being built to our spec. It really was the "dream" retirement home.

For a whole bunch of reasons it fell through after 18 months and we rapidly had to find a new place just as COVID was hitting. We are now buying a new build semi with a small garden, still in a small town/village. We constantly say "thank goodness we didn't go through with the other place." The place we are buying is better designed, the small garden will be easy to maintain and we are within half a mile of a main line station. It's also more affordable, which means we can kit it out with nice furniture that should last us until we need to move to a flat/retirement home.

We now realise the garden at the other place would have been far too big for us, the room sizes were too big (a large lounge for example, which we just didn't want) and we got a bit carried away with the "lovely" location. We would never have looked at the place we are buying now because it didn't fit the "dream" but we realise now it will be a much better place for the next 20 years plus than our "dream" place. The development we are on isn't massive and we felt it will be nice to have people around us as we get older. Many of the other residents seem to be a similar demographic to us (retired with grown up kids).

So just wanted to share that our experience was that the "dream" can sometimes colour your vision regarding the reality of downsizing and retirement. It certainly did for us.  

Very interesting OldMusicGuy. The place you were planning to buy sounds like our "dream" - detatched chalet bungalow with space, lots of rooms for hobbies/pastimes and a large enough garden for DW's ambitions. I do have low maintenance in mind and proximity to a train station though as requirements.

OldMusicGuy

DairyQueen said:

Nice to see your post OMG and thanks for sharing. I was wondering how your move was progressing. Sorry that you have been through a basin-full of hassle but pleased to hear that you are well on the way to a great outcome.

There is no doubt that the house we love is too big but we currently crave space. We are also desperate to be free of traffic and neighbour-noise. I hope that you enjoy years of quiet neighbours but there is no guarantee when you live in close proximity.

Another experience:

My elderly parents have lived in a detached bungie in a street full of similar properties and like-minded neighbours for 20+ years. Last year their elderly neighbour entered care and next door has been rented. Very nice, young family but they like to share their taste in music and at loud volume. Even my very hard of hearing dad has remarked on the noise that now regularly pervades his formerly tranquil garden and conservatory. 

The only way to guarantee peace is to put as much space between you, traffic  and neighbours as possible. Sounds harsh and nimby but peace is at the top of my 'must have' list and it seems that taking on the risk of an old house is the only way we will afford it.

I'm still humming and hawing.

Thanks for the kind words. The dream turned to sand sadly, because the builder (who we thought we could trust) turned out to be like many builders. Just said what we wanted to hear every time we saw him but basically did his own thing and then ran into cash flow issues which meant he wanted us to front up increasing sums of money to finance the build. So we pulled the plug.

I hear what you say. A semi would never have been on our list to start with. But the design of the house (which is by far the best of any we have seen in the way it makes use of space, and we have looked at hundreds, old and new) means the impact of neighbour noise will be minimal. Actually I may be the neighbour from hell as I may be 63 but that doesn't stop me from recording post-punk rackets in my home studio..... We lived in a new detached place before but realised that the gardens and houses were so close together they were virtually semi-detached anyway.

We love character properties and it was initially what my wife wanted. I've renovated two Victorian terraced properties and we lived in an 1840 Grade II listed house for a while as well. I could do any DIY when I was younger but now it's just too much hassle and not what I want to do in my retirement, so I was less keen than my wife.  We found that most character properties were either too rural or were right in the heart of small towns/villages and thus had parking issues. We also found old properties had lots of nooks and crannies that added "character" but you couldn't really do anything with. But if you don't mind that and like a rural location then it might work for you.

Best of luck. 

squirrelpie

DairyQueen said:

The only way to guarantee peace is to put as much space between you, traffic  and neighbours as possible.

Hmm, I think it depends on your definition of peace. However much space you have around you, unless you own it all, it can be a source of noise. The fields behind us sometimes have loud noises from farm machinery and clouds of dust. Fortunately the farmer doesn't seem to spread much muck. If there's livestock in your fields it can be much livelier. We also have helicopters flying over us sometimes. Fortunately our shiny triple-glazed windows keep out the noise and dust and our MVHR gives us fresh air. In an old house we'd have to open the old windows so it wouldn't matter too much whether they were single or double glazed.

But yes, we're glad that we have some neighbours nearby but not right next to us, and that the road is relatively quiet and that we do have fields as well, but also that there's a town a couple of miles away as well as a main dual carriageway.

But I'm of the persuasion that will never touch a listed building, so you'd probably better ignore me.

TBC15

I must admit I’ve skipped a few contributions to the thread, but my mind is cast back to about 20 yrs ago.

We went to look at a place built in 1860’s. Had a small graveyard adjacent with the just the  walls of a very old church on site. It had what would have been stables, now used as outbuildings. The old house on 3 stories was obviously not sutable for modern living and the present occupiers had spent some time/money making the ground floor cozy. At the time I said to the wife maintenance would probably be a nightmare/money pit. She said it’s been here since 1860, it will be here long after we are gone.      It sold the next week, unfortunately not to us.

AnotherJoe

DairyQueen said:

AnotherJoe said:

DairyQueen said:

The property is listed (Grade II) and it’s large.

Strike One.

Madness to buy as a retirement home but this is our dream home.

The cost of maintenance and insurance is likely to add at least £10kp.a. to our non-discretionary expenses.

Strike Two.

Our planned starting ‘number’ was around £45kp.a. from 2021 to include a generous holiday allowance and a lot of fat. This property would eat all of the fat and (I suspect) the holiday allowance if I was widowed

Three strikes.

I entirely fail to see why this is a dream home, sounds like a nightmare  to me, but then again I also fail to see why you both are continuing to work when you have limited life expectancy (genuinely sorry to hear that  )

Wake up before you sleepwalk into a nightmare house.

Retire now, into a house that isn't a whacking big boat anchor on your truncated retirement plans

Yep, the common-sense thing would be to buy a new 4-bed bungie (UPVC, triple-glazed, heat pump, solar panels). The dream definitely isn't this kind of financial commitment. Problem is that 'sensible' has always been my middle-name and I am in danger of being sensible once too often. That's why I seek a range of well-informed opinions.

The dream is space, peace, privacy, character, fields and trees. These are highly sought-after and only the building's antiquity and listed status prevents an extra £100k on the price. If this was a new barn conversion or of conventional construction the London escapees would be in a bidding war. I can't overestimate the extent to which lockdown has impacted our local market. We are smack-bang in the price range, and seeking the property type, most requested by Londoners. The market was crazy before the SDLT reduction was announced, now it's a bloodbath.

Mr DQ continues to work because he enjoys it and he would be hard-pressed to keep himself occupied in tiny home otherwise. He earns well and is able to pick his clients and that's a great position for him. As a former weekend visitor he has yet to establish a life here and will likely take some time to do so. Incentive to stop working will increase when we are settled in a home that gives us pleasure and roots. Yes, it could be a financial nightmare but isn't the potential pleasure worth the risk?

I just don't see much pleasure in a house that needs constant maintenance and cleaning, nor whose cost sucked away the pleasure you were planning with trips etc.