Compressed Working Hours and Holiday use - aaarrrggghhh!

JohnD80

Masomnia said:

Brackenfield said:

Ideally you should have holidays in hours.  However, in days, you work 5 days a week, they just happen to be days of differing lengths.  If you take a full week off that should be 5 days.  So a friday off is a full days holiday, it doesn't matter if it's a 5 hour or 10 hour day; it's a full day of your working day.

This is fine if you only ever take full weeks off.

Which reminds me... what about bank hols? Half of these are Friday this year and you have to take full days off even though you're only contracted for half days?

I think just on this you're probably missing out on statutory entitlement.

I see both sides of this and I don't want there to be any I'll feeling in the team. I'm aware I'm better off than many in the company for holiday entitlement but by the same token this solution feels a bit like a bodge and I'm uncomfortable with it as a result. There's lots of disparity between contracts as we're made up of a number of companies and terms haven't been aligned. Lunch durations, annual leave allowance, expense policies and salaries are all over the place! 

Brackenfield

The OP is contracted for a full day on a friday whether that is a 5 hour day or a 7.5 hour day so a Friday off is one day holiday. A bank holiday is just another holiday.

Masomnia

JohnD80 said:

Masomnia said:

Brackenfield said:

Ideally you should have holidays in hours.  However, in days, you work 5 days a week, they just happen to be days of differing lengths.  If you take a full week off that should be 5 days.  So a friday off is a full days holiday, it doesn't matter if it's a 5 hour or 10 hour day; it's a full day of your working day.

This is fine if you only ever take full weeks off.

Which reminds me... what about bank hols? Half of these are Friday this year and you have to take full days off even though you're only contracted for half days?

I think just on this you're probably missing out on statutory entitlement.

I see both sides of this and I don't want there to be any I'll feeling in the team. I'm aware I'm better off than many in the company for holiday entitlement but by the same token this solution feels a bit like a bodge and I'm uncomfortable with it as a result. There's lots of disparity between contracts as we're made up of a number of companies and terms haven't been aligned. Lunch durations, annual leave allowance, expense policies and salaries are all over the place! 

I think you're probably worse off, all things considered.

Sorry if I missed it, but to be clear you work 37.5 hours per week. How many hours do you work Monday to Thursday and how many on a Friday and what is your break entitlement?

What's your full entitlement to holidays each year? Including or excluding bank holidays?

How does it work with bank holidays? Are these taken into consideration or are you just given 20 days to take each year?

JohnD80

Brackenfield said:

The OP is contracted for a full day on a friday whether that is a 5 hour day or a 7.5 hour day so a Friday off is one day holiday. A bank holiday is just another holiday.

I'm not sure that's true though. I'm contacted for 8.25 hours Monday to Thursday and 4.5 hours (without lunch) on a Friday. I think measuring in days and hours is confusing. Isn't this what flexible working regs are trying to address? 

JohnD80

Masomnia said:

JohnD80 said:

Masomnia said:

Brackenfield said:

Ideally you should have holidays in hours.  However, in days, you work 5 days a week, they just happen to be days of differing lengths.  If you take a full week off that should be 5 days.  So a friday off is a full days holiday, it doesn't matter if it's a 5 hour or 10 hour day; it's a full day of your working day.

This is fine if you only ever take full weeks off.

Which reminds me... what about bank hols? Half of these are Friday this year and you have to take full days off even though you're only contracted for half days?

I think just on this you're probably missing out on statutory entitlement.

I see both sides of this and I don't want there to be any I'll feeling in the team. I'm aware I'm better off than many in the company for holiday entitlement but by the same token this solution feels a bit like a bodge and I'm uncomfortable with it as a result. There's lots of disparity between contracts as we're made up of a number of companies and terms haven't been aligned. Lunch durations, annual leave allowance, expense policies and salaries are all over the place! 

I think you're probably worse off, all things considered.

Sorry if I missed it, but to be clear you work 37.5 hours per week. How many hours do you work Monday to Thursday and how many on a Friday and what is your break entitlement?

What's your full entitlement to holidays each year? Including or excluding bank holidays?

How does it work with bank holidays? Are these taken into consideration or are you just given 20 days to take each year?

So, 37.5 hours, 8.25 Mon - Thu with 45 min lunch and 4.5 hrs Friday (no lunch). My holiday allowance is 25 days +BHs. I'd assumed my 25 days was scaled down from 28 days for those on 7.5 hrs Mon - Fri but I've come to realise that's not the case - hence why I'm better off for leave than others. 

theoretica

If it's not very many people could you keep a separate spreadsheet of hours with your boss to make sure the two allowances come out the same?

JohnD80

theoretica said:

If it's not very many people could you keep a separate spreadsheet of hours with your boss to make sure the two allowances come out the same?

This sort of thing might work but w really can't get past "you're misusing the system". I was hoping to have a good chat about it and hopefully come to an agreement about the way ahead, sadly that's not been possible so far. 

Masomnia

I see what you mean, so you get 25 days to choose yourself plus the 8 BHs? 

You take the view that your leave isn't being worked out properly; your employer takes the view that you're better off than others and you're getting more than your statutory entitlement so why are you complaining sort of situation.

In that case it comes down to a close reading of the contract and what was agreed when you went to compressed hours. I still think if it's not worked out properly in hours then either one of you loses out, depending on the year and depending on what days you book so it's really in both your interests to sort it out.

You get 6.6 weeks of leave * 37.5 hours is 247.5 hours per year and then each day you take off including bank holidays should be deducted from that according to the hours taken off per day. There might not be that much in it; but if you took a disproportionately high number of Fridays off you were probably down on the deal; if you took fewer Friday off probably better off. 

Masomnia

(I know I'm going against what I said but...) Ignore the bank holidays, and say you get 25 days leave, 5 weeks, 187.5 hours, and you take 25 Mondays off. Your employer loses out, you've been paid for 8.25 hours of work * 25 days = 206.25 hours that you've had off when you're entitled to 187.5.

If you took 25 Fridays off, your employer loses 4.5 hours * 25 days = 112.5 hours; but you're entitled to 187.5, so you've lost out.

Extreme examples but highlights how it can go either way.

JohnD80

Masomnia said:

I see what you mean, so you get 25 days to choose yourself plus the 8 BHs? 

You take the view that your leave isn't being worked out properly; your employer takes the view that you're better off than others and you're getting more than your statutory entitlement so why are you complaining sort of situation.

In that case it comes down to a close reading of the contract and what was agreed when you went to compressed hours. I still think if it's not worked out properly in hours then either one of you loses out, depending on the year and depending on what days you book so it's really in both your interests to sort it out.

You get 6.6 weeks of leave * 37.5 hours is 247.5 hours per year and then each day you take off including bank holidays should be deducted from that according to the hours taken off per day. There might not be that much in it; but if you took a disproportionately high number of Fridays off you were probably down on the deal; if you took fewer Friday off probably better off. 

I think you've summed it nicely. I would like to see holiday dealt with in hours so we all get the same amount of hours "out of office". If not the employment contracts presumably should be aligned. I'm really uncomfortable taking a full day leave on a 4.5 hour day, partly because it doesn't feel right / fair and partly because to balance the books I need to not be in work for another 3 hrs that aren't recorded anywhere. I can see the need to provide the same benefits package across the board but this doesn't feel like the right way of doing it.

As you say, it's in everyone's interest to resolve this correctly.