Refusing to go to work on health and safety grounds?

mowg

Hahahah the garlic is a good idea. She has her own hand sanitiser and the soap isn't a deal breaker, but this is a very wealthy employer. There's really no excuse for an employer with their resources having no soap in the toilets when government guidelines say handwashing is imperative. I suppose it's the principle really. They appear not to care. I'd perhaps understand if soap was hard to come by but like you say, it's not. It's plentiful and cheap, yet they can't be bothered to provide it.

elsien

Unless it's the staff nicking it. In which case it's them not the employer at fault.  
In all seriousness though, focussing on the perceived miserliness of the employer probably isn't helpful.  It detracts from the more important  issues such as actually talking to the manager about social distancing.  Which it doesn't really sound as if she's done as yet. 

General_Grant

Dox said:

She has my sympathy, but that's not going to help her. Saying the employer doesn't replenish soap is pretty pathetic; just buy a bar of the stuff (15p from Tesco) and claim on petty cash. Social distancing is a rather harder one to deal with...maybe she needs to start eating a lot of garlic or anything else which will make her breathe socially unacceptable - and no, I'm not jesting.

Bit out of date with the price (but no matter).

Can't resist saying that back in 1969 I began work with a statutory body which was renting space in a building still applying wartime rationing in the provision soap - so we had a rota for bringing in soap.  (Think by that time it was actually illegal and they should have provided soap and certainly did when we moved to different office accommodation.)

mowg

elsien said:

Unless it's the staff nicking it. In which case it's them not the employer at fault.  
In all seriousness though, focussing on the perceived miserliness of the employer probably isn't helpful.  It detracts from the more important  issues such as actually talking to the manager about social distancing.  Which it doesn't really sound as if she's done as yet. 

Well she's now written to her manager outlying her reasons for not returning to work stressing that a lack of social distancing (that could easily be in place but isn't) as the primary reason. The soap isn't easily accessible as it's in a pump dispenser that requires a key so I don't think it's the staff stealing it. As I understand it the cleaning contractor had the key to the dispenser and it's their job to keep it refilled but the employer has cancelled the cleaning contract as the cleaners weren't turning up.

Which is all fair enough but they have not provided any alternatives when it would be easy for them to do so. Of course she could provide her own and she is using her own hand sanitiser but as someone who has no legal background or expertise I am trying to look at this from a legal perspective. I don't think a judge would think it reasonable for an employer not to provide easily obtained hand soap in the middle of a pandemic and expect the employee to provide their own. From the little I know about such matters courts can be sympathetic to employers who make an effort even if they don't get it right. The ones who make no effort even when it would be straightforward and easy to do are the ones who might come undone.

Comms69

mowg said:

elsien said:

Unless it's the staff nicking it. In which case it's them not the employer at fault.  
In all seriousness though, focussing on the perceived miserliness of the employer probably isn't helpful.  It detracts from the more important  issues such as actually talking to the manager about social distancing.  Which it doesn't really sound as if she's done as yet. 

Well she's now written to her manager outlying her reasons for not returning to work stressing that a lack of social distancing (that could easily be in place but isn't) as the primary reason. The soap isn't easily accessible as it's in a pump dispenser that requires a key so I don't think it's the staff stealing it. As I understand it the cleaning contractor had the key to the dispenser and it's their job to keep it refilled but the employer has cancelled the cleaning contract as the cleaners weren't turning up.

Which is all fair enough but they have not provided any alternatives when it would be easy for them to do so. Of course she could provide her own and she is using her own hand sanitiser but as someone who has no legal background or expertise I am trying to look at this from a legal perspective. I don't think a judge would think it reasonable for an employer not to provide easily obtained hand soap in the middle of a pandemic and expect the employee to provide their own. From the little I know about such matters courts can be sympathetic to employers who make an effort even if they don't get it right. The ones who make no effort even when it would be straightforward and easy to do are the ones who might come undone.

Except of course the simpler solution to risking all this is just to buy some soap?

Social distancing is not mandatory. Whilst there will no doubt be lots of claims down the line, dont expect a tribunal to rule on this unless you/she wants to be the test case. 

oh_really

Can she work from home?
Is social distancing in the workplace practical?

General_Grant

mowg said:

elsien said:

Unless it's the staff nicking it. In which case it's them not the employer at fault.  
In all seriousness though, focussing on the perceived miserliness of the employer probably isn't helpful.  It detracts from the more important  issues such as actually talking to the manager about social distancing.  Which it doesn't really sound as if she's done as yet. 

. . .  as someone who has no legal background or expertise I am trying to look at this from a legal perspective. I don't think a judge would think it reasonable for an employer not to provide easily obtained hand soap in the middle of a pandemic and expect the employee to provide their own. From the little I know about such matters courts can be sympathetic to employers who make an effort even if they don't get it right. The ones who make no effort even when it would be straightforward and easy to do are the ones who might come undone.

Employers have had legal duty for some time - most recently in Regulation 21 (2) (d) of The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations, 1992.  They need to provide "soap or other suitable means of cleaning".

lincroft1710

I think refusing to go to work because no soap was provided may not be sufficient justification. How long has she worked there?

mowg

lincroft1710 said:

I think refusing to go to work because no soap was provided may not be sufficient justification. How long has she worked there?

The soap is just one small part of it. The main part is the lack of social distancing. Being forced to work in an office full of people when some of those people could be placed in other empty rooms is just negligent in my view. She's worked there13 months so I know she's got no claim for unfair dismissal but she may have a claim for automatically unfair dismissal. Hopefully it won't come to that though.

suki1964

The other side of the coin is that its not just employers who are responsible for the H&S of the workforce, the workers are also responsible 

Ive had to work throughout,it was scary at first, but now it doesn't cost me a thought. We cant always social distance because of the nature of the work. We only have one loo, one tiny tea room an even smaller office. I myself make sure there is soap and disinfectant available at all times. I just add it to my weekly shop, hand in the receipt and get refunded. As soon as I found hand sanitiser for sale, I bought extra for work, handed in the receipt . Every morning, lunch and evening, I give the door handles, light switches, the sink taps etc a good old going over with anti bac, in works time, not my own. Nothing has been said to me not to, no back biting from other staff members that Im not "working". I do it so as I feel safer. Im making the changes for me because I know I cant change others behaviour. If I felt that people were in my face I would go in with a mask and five minutes before knock off time I would start disinfecting my own work space and again in the morning