dad moved in with me and selling his house

Keep_pedalling

ynot2005 wrote: »

thanks for the replies, dad has actually been diagnosed pre onset alzheimers 6 years ago, although wether thats actually 100% correct based on him answering general knowledge questions by a doctor seems a little wishy washy to me, he absolutely has dementia and its been getting slowly worse over the years.

our plan is to care for him in our home, we are not complete newbies at the game because we have been carers for him over the last 6 years and at the moment ts relief not constanlty going around his house for hours every day.

i agree with £3k gifts seen as deprevation of assets and selling the house and funds in his name only seems the right thing.

However it doesn't seem right that the money has to sit in his account for fear of the authorities questioniong him later about it, even though at the moment a care home is genuinely the last thing we want.

one last question. would funds from renting the house out be under scrutiny if he went into a care home?

POA has been done 6 years ago.


thanks.

Financial assessment includes income as well as savings and other assets so yes it would of cause be under scrutiny, and it would be subject to income tax as well, so you can’t hide it.

Becoming a landlord is not something that should be considered lightly, it involves a lot of responsibilities, do you really want to take that on as well as caring for him? It is unlikely that you would be able to rent it out without spending significant amounts of money to bring it up to a standard that both meets regulatory requirements and the sort of standards a tenant would want.

You have enough on your plate already keep it simple and sell the property.

BobQ

You have PoA. Was this drawn up by a solicitior? If "homemade" this is not a problem provided it was done correctly? Has it been registered with the Court?

You are restricted under a PoA to doing what is in your father's best interests. Your actions are governed by law. Selling the house is straightforward but you must put the money in an account in his name.The net rental income also needs to go into his bank account.

However it doesn't seem right that the money has to sit in his account for fear of the authorities questioniong him later about it, even though at the moment a care home is genuinely the last thing we want.

Strictly it does not need to sit in the bank but the difficulty is that you many need to show that anything you do with the money is in his best interests. So for example if he has a problem climbing the stairs spending it on a stair lift would be OK.Investing 50% to set you up in a business would not.

You also need to appreciate that anyone could question what you do and it might be investigated. Take what you would think was a silly example. Say you had a row with your sister and she complained about you misappropriating his money, could you justify everything you have done?.

one last question. would funds from renting the house out be under scrutiny if he went into a care home?

Of course they would. It would be one of the sources of his income that he would be expected to use to pay the care fees.If any rental income was left over it would go into his account.

Also if his total income did not cover the care home fees, the local authority could require the house to be sold rather than rented.

Renting is not the solution. When you rent you have a lot of costs. Either you pay an agent to check tenants and sort out agreements and rent collection or you do it yourself with a lot of effort. There are times when tenants do not pay rent or the house is between tenants, maintenance may eat up a lot of rent one month. You have already said there are maintenance issues.

ynot2005

The POA was not homemade, problems with my sister and her husband is spot on as something we should be aware of with regards to misappropriating his money.

Its really the first time in 6 years that decisions have to be made in his interests with money.

I will sell the house and put the money in his account and not bother with renting.

Its not just about learning what a POA means....i know what it means , its obviously a minefield of whats allowed and not allowed, i really need a bigger bungalow, or an extension, i suppose large chunks of his funds maybe be allowed then but not "gifting £3k"

I wont be doing anything but having him at our home and giving him the best care the "Gujarati palace" at £900 a week would never get close to, i doubt he would ever leave his bed there.

Thanks for taking the time to reply

missile

It is a difficult situation for you.

To avoid any future complaint from your sister, it is essential that you keep records of expenditure on his behalf. I would take time to think about then write down what you feel is appropriate expenditure on his behalf discuss this with a solicitor and ask him to confirm. The cost of legal advice could be charged to your fathers account.

I_Love_comps

Linton wrote: »

One other point on leaving Dad's house empty....


The insurer will require that the house is internally inspected on a frequent and regular basis, perhaps once every 2 weeks. Do you live close enough to make that practical?

When I was looking after my mothers house, before I sold it. It needed to be checked once a week.

BobQ

ynot2005 wrote: »

Its not just about learning what a POA means....i know what it means , its obviously a minefield of whats allowed and not allowed, i really need a bigger bungalow, or an extension, i suppose large chunks of his funds maybe be allowed then but not "gifting £3k"

.

You could possibly use the funds to build an extension or to buy a larger house. But:
- It would be easier if your sister, or anyone else who might benefit from an inheritance, understood and agreed with the financial arrangements.
- Your father's interest in the property would need to be recognised by owning the property as tenants in common with your father having a share based on his financial contribution.
- It would have to be reasonable. So if the balance of probablity was that he might live it that property for 10 years it could be justified. But if it is likely he will be in a care home in 2 years it probably would not.
- Building extensions can get quite messy!

But the issue from your point of view is that even if you can justify this, what happens when this phase comes to an end.

-Your father goes into a home, are you willing to sell the house or buy your father's share?

- Your father dies, will the house need to be sold to liquify his share of the house. Again are you willing to sell.

- Your father goes into a home and most of his remaining money has been used to pay for care. Are you prepared to sell the house or borrow to buy his share?

ynot2005

Thanks Bob, that sounds like a nightmare i could do without "tenants in common", its far easier really to do nothing but sell and money in his account untouched.

Its hard to make plans for any length of time, he should be dead now after his diaganosis of alzheimers 6 years ago, (if that was right), i can see him living to 100 like his mother did.

Sister thinks as always , he his on his last legs. so any kind of agreement about large wads of money spent is awkward to say the least.

GauisScotius

I have been here with my own father, perhaps these thoughts may help.

You don't say if your father has any conditions other than dementia, but dementia alone does not significantly reduce life expectancy; to me that's what makes it so awful. There are various life expectancy calculations, but the basic life expectancy figures published by the Office of National Statistics shows that a male aged 87 can expect to live for a further 5 or so years. This is obviously an average that captures both men who are in good health and will live much longer, and men with bad hearts who could pass away tomorrow. If you have a health and welfare PoA your father's GP might be a better source of a guesstimate, but without one patient confidentiality will prevent him from discussing these things with you. If you only have a property and affairs PoA, don't expect meaningful communication from the medical profession about your father's health.

Assuming you live in England (as my father did) having even a decent guess as to life expectancy - and I know if it seems rather cold blooded - is important to making sensible decisions. Bringing your father home in the expectation of a short stay that then becomes 5 or 6 years puts tremendous strain on everyone. Having moved him home it's also far, far harder to contemplate moving him to a care home as his condition inevitably deteriorates: "it'll only be a few more months" rapidly changes to years and your life is put on hold. That, if I may be so presumptuous, is something you need to have a serious discussion about with your whole family.

Health and social care is a complete disaster in England. Local authorities are responsible fir social care, but won't pay a brass farthing towards it if your father has assets of over £23,000 (at least as of 2017, it may have gone up a little by now). The NHS is responsible for nursing care, but draw that definition very tightly; pretty much to things that can legally only be performed by a registered nurse. That funding comes through something called Continuing Health Care, but they too will stringing you out to dry unless you are very persistent and able to frame your rather's needs in terms of a very structured assessment process. If you apply I would suggest getting professional support to understand your father's needs and help you frame the application - particularly during the actual in person assessment; how questions are answered makes all the difference. Don't expect your father's social worker (he should have one) to be of any help; it's not within their purview and it's no skin off their nose whether you get CHC funding or not.

Against this background may I propose that you (and your family) carefully compare the cost of home care against that of a care home before making any decision. On the home care front, you are constrained by the PoA to act in your father's best interest, but that does not mean that you must provide care gratuitously. You can certainly be reimbursed for all costs of converting a room in your home (e.g. adding an accessible en-suite), any equipment needed (tilting chairs, grab rails, pressure sensors, fall alarms etc. Some stuff - like a hospital bed - may be available through the NHS if recommended by an Occupational Therapist), for additional expenses incurred (heating, lighting) and for the cost of bringing in carers to help your father with personal care (bathing, toilet, feeding). If you are able and willing to do some of this, there is no reason why you or someone else in your family cannot be employed to do so. The Office of the Public Guardian doesn't police LPAs, it reacts to complaints made against an Attorney. It would be hard to challenge you providing care services if it was done at the same (or a lower) hourly rate than paying a home care provider for the same services, and particularly if it was agreed in advance by the family. It may sound callous, but if there is any likelihood of a subsequent family dispute, ask a trusted third party to be present during the conversation (e.g. your father's social worker; take contemporaneous notes of any agreement made; and get those notes signed by the third party.

Don't forget that, if you do get paid for looking after you father, it is an employment by your father; there are NI and income tax implications that you'll need to pin down.

All I can say is, the very best of luck. I was extremely lucky in that my sister lived with my father in his final years and he finally died in his own bed with both of us present. She provided much support with the help of a fantastic team of local, private carers who did the messy stuff; I just fought the system - social work indifference, CHC, council tax - which although brutal was probably nowhere near as hard emotionally.

ynot2005

GauisScotius, thanks for that response , its given me a lot to think about.

we are going to do all the messy stuff and well everything else ourselves, as a carer, im getting paid already and with his pension coming into the household there is extra there too, so money is not really an issue.

i just wanted to know about selling his house and finances then , which seems to be straightforward now.

thanks

badmemory

Please remember that if your father has a social worker then you should double check anything that they tell you from an independent source. I do not like the fact that this has to be said about any professional but their info cannot be relied upon.