California bans sale of fur clothing

Martyn1981

1961Nick wrote: »

There have been a few documentaries about the fur trade & the treatment of animals is often horrific. I don't have an issue with people who want to wear fur, but I do have a big issue with cruelty to animals. Unfortunately, the type of animals that provide fur usually have to be contained in a cage otherwise they'd escape. That's enough of a reason to ban the trade for me.

I think that's a very important point. It doesn't mean farming herd animals for meat is not necessarily cruel, but it can be done humanely, so the difference is vast.

Stress is the key issue here. If I remember correctly, farming Kangaroos is proving almost impossible, despite them being classed in some locations as a 'pest' (I've no idea if that is justified or not), and the meat being of great quality, but as well as the enormous fencing costs, or costs of enormous fencing, they have found that the animals suffer to great a stress.

For fur trade animals I suspect it's as bad or worse.

JKenH

I am all in favour of more humane treatment of animals bred for fur, as indeed for meat.

I would go back to what I described as my philosophical point and ask whether it is better for an animal to spend its life in a cage or not exist at all.

It is similar thinking that makes me anti-abortion. When a child is conceived an embryo is created which will grow into a human being. Abortion deprives that embryo of ever becoming a person, ie it is killed before it is sentient. That is a human being who will never ever exist and experience the world. It is effectively the same as killing the child at birth. That is too high a price to pay because a baby may prove inconvenient.

pile-o-stone

JKenH wrote: »

I was quite old, 13 actually, although I think most children experience it much younger.

I was too fearful of being rejected by girls at 13 to worry about death. If organised religion puts the fear of death into children then I'm so glad my parents raised me, and that I'm raising my kids, as atheists.

pile-o-stone

JKenH wrote: »

I am all in favour of more humane treatment of animals bred for fur, as indeed for meat.

Out of interest, have you ever hunted or farmed and then killed and slaughtered your own meat Ken?

As you're an internet person, I'm sure you own a farm and hunting reserve and kill animals with your bare hands on an hourly basis. However, when I ask this, most people say no, and that they are too squeamish to do so. They say they're happy to pay someone else to do it for them.

I then point out that the majority of abattoir workers are just ordinary people like them and find the work to be unpleasant, bordering horrific some days and end up suffering for years from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD).

https://metro.co.uk/2017/12/31/how-killing-animals-everyday-leaves-slaughterhouse-workers-traumatised-7175087/

"If a pig came and nuzzled you like a puppy, would you be able to kill it just moments later?

This is one of the scenarios faced by slaughterhouse workers on a daily basis. They see animals that are, in many ways, no different to those we welcome into our homes as family members. They then have to kill them. Hundreds, sometimes thousands of them a day.

The psychological toll this takes on a person cannot be underestimated. Slaughterhouse work has been linked to a variety of disorders, including PTSD and the lesser-known PITS (perpetration-induced traumatic stress). It has also been connected to an increase in crime rates, including higher incidents of domestic abuse, as well as alcohol and drug abuse.

And as the already huge demand for meat goes up, so too does the number of animals employees are required to kill on a daily basis. Yet among the general population, surprisingly little is known about the price these often low-wage workers pay so that others can enjoy meat in relative oblivion."

I read an article written by a former abattoir worker who said that many of the animals are reared by farmers who treat them well, and the animalks form an attachment to humans. When they go to the slaughterhouse they're scared and seek reassurance from the humans there by nuzzling them.

I gave up meat a long time before I read that, but if I hadn't I would have there and then. I'm not prepared to turn a blind eye while terrified animals are butchered and people's mental health is suffering just so that I can eat something that is actually bad for me.

JKenH

pile-o-stone wrote: »

I was too fearful of being rejected by girls at 13 to worry about death. If organised religion puts the fear of death into children then I'm so glad my parents raised me, and that I'm raising my kids, as atheists.

I don’t know if it was religion or what that caused that moment for me to be so traumatic but the fear has not gone away. I know a lot of people don’t ever think about death in the way I do - the loss of existence. They worry about the practical considerations of dying but not about ceasing to exist. Maybe I am just unfortunate in being particularly aware of my existence as distinct from everyone else’s.

This might sound very self centred, it’s not intended to, but without me the world doesn’t exist. When I die my world dies, the whole universe, everything ceases to exist.

JKenH

pile-o-stone wrote: »

Out of interest, have you ever hunted or farmed and then killed and slaughtered your own meat Ken?

As you're an internet person, I'm sure you own a farm and hunting reserve and kill animals with your bare hands on an hourly basis. However, when I ask this, most people say no, and that they are too squeamish to do so. They say they're happy to pay someone else to do it for them.

I then point out that the majority of abattoir workers are just ordinary people like them and find the work to be unpleasant, bordering horrific some days and end up suffering for years from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD).

https://metro.co.uk/2017/12/31/how-killing-animals-everyday-leaves-slaughterhouse-workers-traumatised-7175087/

"If a pig came and nuzzled you like a puppy, would you be able to kill it just moments later?

This is one of the scenarios faced by slaughterhouse workers on a daily basis. They see animals that are, in many ways, no different to those we welcome into our homes as family members. They then have to kill them. Hundreds, sometimes thousands of them a day.

The psychological toll this takes on a person cannot be underestimated. Slaughterhouse work has been linked to a variety of disorders, including PTSD and the lesser-known PITS (perpetration-induced traumatic stress). It has also been connected to an increase in crime rates, including higher incidents of domestic abuse, as well as alcohol and drug abuse.

And as the already huge demand for meat goes up, so too does the number of animals employees are required to kill on a daily basis. Yet among the general population, surprisingly little is known about the price these often low-wage workers pay so that others can enjoy meat in relative oblivion."

I read an article written by a former abattoir worker who said that many of the animals are reared by farmers who treat them well, and the animalks form an attachment to humans. When they go to the slaughterhouse they're scared and seek reassurance from the humans there by nuzzling them.

I gave up meat a long time before I read that, but if I hadn't I would have there and then. I'm not prepared to turn a blind eye while terrified animals are butchered and people's mental health is suffering just so that I can eat something that is actually bad for me.

No I haven’t but I was brought up on a farm when it was still legal to slaughter one’s own animals and can remember pigs throats being cut to kill them and my dad going into the orchard, finding a cockerel and wringing its neck before taking it to my mum to cook. I have spent hours feeding pigs and calves and think pigs are great and love animals.

So if you are asking could I kill an animal with my bare hands, the answer is no, I couldn’t. I don’t have to. Meat is something I buy in the butcher’s. There is, thankfully, a huge disconnect for me and most other people between seeing an animal in a field and the meat appearing on my plate.

If the only option was to kill my own pig I would probably go without bacon. I could possibly kill a chicken though.

Please don’t ask me to justify that, its just the way life is.

pile-o-stone

Hexane wrote: »

There's been plenty of documentaries about the cruelty to animals used to provide meat, too. Perhaps it's "more avoidable" there, perhaps not. The point where it gets really silly is refusing to eat honey or anything that contains it (true veganism); those bees really are enjoying themselves however the system is worked.

One reason is that commercial beekeepers don’t allow the bees to eat honey, they harvest all the honey in autumn and feed the bees sugar or high-fructose corn syrup (whatever happens to be cheaper) until spring. When the bees aren’t allowed to feed on their own honey, they weaken and become more susceptible to disease and mites. This has led to a major decline in the honey bee population, and it could cause serious horticultural and economic affects worldwide.

It's also an issue with commercial growers moving the hives around the country - they're paid by farmers to pollinate their crops. This has various effects such as:

Stress to the bees from being transported.

The bees are exposed to insecticides, which they take back to the hive. Over time, the pesticide levels in the hive build up until they reach a critically-toxic level that kills off the entire colony.

Native 'wild' bees can't compete with the large number of bees brought in with the hives so they move away. This empties an area of bees, especially when the hives are taken to another area. Remember, the farmer is only interested in pollination of their crops and so the bees are removed when that's done. A lot of other flowers and plants need the bees at a different time of the spring/summer. If the bees aren't there, then they're not pollinated.

Some more details below on the Peta site. As the headline banner says "Animals are not ours".

https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/animals-used-food-factsheets/honey-factory-farmed-bees/

pile-o-stone

JKenH wrote: »

Please don’t ask me to justify that, its just the way life is.

That's not the way my life is.

JKenH

I respect that. What’s your take on abortion?

Martyn1981

JKenH wrote: »

I respect that. What’s your take on abortion?

It's up to those involved, not us to decide/dictate.