How green is your energy tariff?

1961Nick

mmmmikey wrote: »

Ofgem sponsored research on green tariffs, a few years old but worth a read....



https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/88451/gtmessagingsummaryfinal-pdf

Excellent report.

I like the idea of a Green Tariff rating system with independent verification.

Martyn1981

The simple question is will more demand for clean leccy, and perhaps going forward, clean(er) gas help, or make things worse.

If we ignore any spin or over complicated 'what if's' the answer is simple, more demand drives more supply, and as RE costs fall, they can actually compete against the old FF generation.

In many cases PV and on-shore wind are just about viable, but the risk is too great for the investment, but via PPA's (direct to large consumers), or long term contracts to energy suppliers, they are able to remove the risk, reduce their finance costs, and build out more RE.

I appreciate that some are skeptical, or just plain negative, but the more of us that move our demand, the better, as UK generation is then being pushed/supported from both sides, demand (us) and supply (UK legislation and support schemes).

JKenH

Zarch wrote: »

What makes Octopus Energy so very green?

https://octopus.energy/blog/greenwashing/

An interesting read I posted on the green news thread the other week.

That looked pretty green to me yet Which? didn’t put them in their most green category.

mmmmikey

Martyn1981 wrote: »

I appreciate that some are skeptical, or just plain negative, but the more of us that move our demand, the better, as UK generation is then being pushed/supported from both sides, demand (us) and supply (UK legislation and support schemes).

Hi Martyn

In the spirit (I hope) of friendly debate, before I give up on this, could I ask you to reflect on the substance of my other posts and "green credentials", give me the benefit of the doubt and consider one fundamental question? Forget all the stuff about economic theory, subsidies and tariffs, etc. for a moment and consider just this one thing...

If I switch to a green tariff tonight, and the energy provider I switch to only buys 100% renewable energy, where does that energy come from? Clearly they can't make the wind blow faster or the sun shine more, so what is it that actually generates this electricity I'm buying?

[Deleted User]

I look at it this way, regardless of the supplier I chose, only 40% of the electrons coming through the big wire into my house are from renewable energy. Picking a green supplier doesn't change the fact that 41% of the electricity boiling my kettle will be from gas generation.

I'm happy for people to buy "green" energy to ease their conscience, I personally ease my wallet by buying the cheapest knowing I'm getting exactly the same gas and electric entering my house and my impact to the environment is exactly the same as my neighbour on an all green tariff.

Having said that I'm currently on a 100% renewable electricity tariff but only because it was the cheapest when I switched.

Reed_Richards

It wasn't that long ago when you had to pay a premium to be on a "green" tariff. So it might be more productive to consider what has changed than to argue over "green credentials".

joefizz

Reed_Richards wrote: »

It wasn't that long ago when you had to pay a premium to be on a "green" tariff. So it might be more productive to consider what has changed than to argue over "green credentials".

I always thought someone was missing a trick by not promoting a non-nuclear tariff like we have here in NI.
Sure its higher in CO2 which may or may not cause global warming but we dont poison the earth for millenia... type of thing...


(do I really need to put a smiley on that - ;-))

Martyn1981

mmmmikey wrote: »

Hi Martyn

In the spirit (I hope) of friendly debate, before I give up on this, could I ask you to reflect on the substance of my other posts and "green credentials", give me the benefit of the doubt and consider one fundamental question? Forget all the stuff about economic theory, subsidies and tariffs, etc. for a moment and consider just this one thing...

If I switch to a green tariff tonight, and the energy provider I switch to only buys 100% renewable energy, where does that energy come from? Clearly they can't make the wind blow faster or the sun shine more, so what is it that actually generates this electricity I'm buying?

Sorry Mikey but your 'conditions' are unreasonable. Time and economics are essential, they can't be put to one side, otherwise the debate is pointless.

I doubt anyone thinks that they (or anyone else) changing to a green supply will instantly change the UK mix, if you think I'm saying or suggesting that, then I'm not.

In your example, you'd increase the demand for RE, and reduce the demand for 'conventional' generation. This would (as part of the bigger whole) push up prices for RE and lower prices for gas/coal.

Over time (and we have to include a time period otherwise you are ignoring all the benefits), supply for RE generation will be driven higher and faster than it otherwise would.

1961Nick

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Sorry Mikey but your 'conditions' are unreasonable. Time and economics are essential, they can't be put to one side, otherwise the debate is pointless.

I doubt anyone thinks that they (or anyone else) changing to a green supply will instantly change the UK mix, if you think I'm saying or suggesting that, then I'm not.

In your example, you'd increase the demand for RE, and reduce the demand for 'conventional' generation. This would (as part of the bigger whole) push up prices for RE and lower prices for gas/coal.

Over time (and we have to include a time period otherwise you are ignoring all the benefits), supply for RE generation will be driven higher and faster than it otherwise would.

The issue is Mart, that a lot of these so called 'green' tariffs are being sold as green now, when clearly most of them aren't. Promoting 'guilt free energy consumption' is akin to mis-selling imo.

I get what you're saying about driving green energy demand over the threshold of what's already being produced and forcing generators to add more capacity, but there's so much apathy that it may never happen. Ken made a good point about supply & demand - if the demand increases to the point that the 'green' energy price exceeds regular tariffs, we'll probably see customers reverting back to 'not bothered' tariffs.

The only way Mikey can make a difference tomorrow by switching to a green tariff today, is to choose a supplier that invests in their own renewable generation. Octopus appears to be one & I'm sure there must be others out there. A comparison of the self generated units compared to the units sold would indicate the true 'greenness' of the company.

Green gas by virtue of carbon offset is blatant mis-selling.

JKenH

Martyn1981 wrote: »

In your example, you'd increase the demand for RE, and reduce the demand for 'conventional' generation. This would (as part of the bigger whole) push up prices for RE and lower prices for gas/coal.

Over time (and we have to include a time period otherwise you are ignoring all the benefits), supply for RE generation will be driven higher and faster than it otherwise would.

Interesting what happened with VW and the Golf hybrid. Demand was exceeding supply and delivery dates extended from 3 months to 9 months so VW, instead of building more, canned the car. Something similar might happen with green energy tariffs - if demand forces costs (wholesale prices) up some of the electricity providers may can their green tariff.