Christmas meal question

margaretclare

Lifeisbutadream wrote: »

I think you might have perhaps lost the gist of the thread?

I was asking about a christmas meal - I asked a question and it was answered by one or two people.

I then moved on and asked the question as to whether a 'planning' meal would be tax deductable. (Meaning that if that was the case then I could consider doing a 'planning' meal instead of a 'christmas meal - perhaps I should have put a :rolleyes: next to it, so it would be fully understood that it was a tongue-in-cheek comment)

I dont really understand what you dont understand, apart from that

What I don't understand is why you think a business meal, whether a 'planning' meal or otherwise, has anything at all to do with Christmas.

It occurred to me that perhaps you thought that sticking a 'Christmas' tag on to a business meal would make it tax-deductible. That was, as far as I could see, the only reason for bringing Christmas into the discussion at all.

To explain: even if you don't keep Christmas/Advent as a religious festival, most other people keep it as a family/traditional occasion. Neither of these considerations has anything to do with business. Christmas starts on the evening of 24th December and most people are not thinking about work/business by then.

Is that clearer to you?

Margaret

Lifeisbutadream

margaretclare wrote: »

What I don't understand is why you think a business meal, whether a 'planning' meal or otherwise, has anything at all to do with Christmas.

It occurred to me that perhaps you thought that sticking a 'Christmas' tag on to a business meal would make it tax-deductible. That was, as far as I could see, the only reason for bringing Christmas into the discussion at all.

To explain: even if you don't keep Christmas/Advent as a religious festival, most other people keep it as a family/traditional occasion. Neither of these considerations has anything to do with business. Christmas starts on the evening of 24th December and most people are not thinking about work/business by then.

Is that clearer to you?

Margaret

I have re-read my posts and although I dont understand why you dont understand, I have defined clearly below what I was asking.

I am a partner with OH in a small building/joinery business.

We have a small number of regular contractors who we use when doing small extensions.

Obviously a lot of what we do is due to the contractors that we use and I want to have a works Christmas 'do'. Its not going to be much fun if just me and OH go, so I was asking the question as to whether it was tax-deductable to take out sub-contractors (it was a hypethetical question - nothing is booked as it would depend on whether it is tax-deductable as to how much we can afford to spend)

As the answer appeared to be 'no', I then asked the (hypethetical) question as to whether we had a 'business meal' to discuss a build we are managing in January, whether it would be tax-deductable (meaning that we could go out for our christmas 'do' and then put it through the books as a 'business meal'.

Again the answer I was given was no.

I have since asked the question whether it would be tax deductable for me and OH to go for a 'works do'. I am still awaiting an answer.

I am not suggesting calling something a 'christmas' meal would make it tax deductable.

What it has to do with Christmas is that I want to take out some of our workers for Christmas.

I hope this has clarified the question I was asking.

Bean_Counter

Lifeisbutadream wrote: »

Could we have a staff annual party (me and OH are partners in the business) with up to a certain amount tax deductable?

Not sure to be honest. If you look at the HMRC link, it refers to directors and employees, whereas you appear to be a partnership. Whether partnership are included or not, I do not know, although it would seem to make sense (if that counts for anything these days.)

If you want a definitive decision, then contact your local tax office, I guess.

Lifeisbutadream

Bean_Counter wrote: »

Not sure to be honest. If you look at the HMRC link, it refers to directors and employees, whereas you appear to be a partnership. Whether partnership are included or not, I do not know, although it would seem to make sense (if that counts for anything these days.)

If you want a definitive decision, then contact your local tax office, I guess.

Thanks Bean Counter - it would make sense for us to be included as a partnership, but HMRC dont seem to work things like that.

I have actually asked my Accountant this question, but he has not got back to me yet. I will try local tax office.

Pennywise

The practical realities of this is that you can, of course, have a meeting with customers/suppliers/staff, etc to discuss business, and if that meeting happens to go over a mealtime, then yes, you can provide appropriate "refreshments" and you would get tax relief. What you need to look at is the practical difference between refreshments/subsistence and a proper meal/entertaining. If your proposed meeting is at a lunchtime and will include a few cups of tea/coffee, and a "buffet" meal of sandwiches/sausage rolls, etc., you are highly unlikely to have any tax relief claim challenged. If however, your meeting will be in the evening, include a full meal, include alcohol, etc., then you've no chance of tax relief.

I've had countless claims decided on this simple basis by the tax inspectors over many years. Basically, if they see a restaurant bill for an evening meal they are very interested and ask questions, but if they see a bill for a few sandwiches, or for a burger at McD's at a lunchtime, they accept is as normal subsistence/refreshments. Although it doesn't say as much in their manuals, that is the basis on which they work.

Keep the costs down and you'll be OK, go to a restaurant, and you won't.

JasonLVC

Woah, thought I'd clicked onto the Maddie or Iraqi threads for a moment - didn't expect to see that kind of hostility outside of the Discussion forum.

From a VAT perspective, entertaining is generally not allowed (blocked), but it is possible to recover VAT on the element of 'entertaining' for your employee (eg, if 1 employee goes out and has a curry with a client, then you can have 50% of the VAT of the cost reclaimed as relating to 'business' as 50% relates to your employees (food/wine) costs, but not that of the clients - best way to do this is ask waiter for a split bill).

Staff entertaining (whether Christmas or any kind of 'team building' event) is usually fully VAT recoverbale as well. When you invite staff and their partners (or clients/subbies) then you can recover the VAT on costs relating to staff but not partners/clients/subbies).

Lifeisbutadream

JasonLVC wrote: »

Woah, thought I'd clicked onto the Maddie or Iraqi threads for a moment - didn't expect to see that kind of hostility outside of the Discussion forum.

From a VAT perspective, entertaining is generally not allowed (blocked), but it is possible to recover VAT on the element of 'entertaining' for your employee (eg, if 1 employee goes out and has a curry with a client, then you can have 50% of the VAT of the cost reclaimed as relating to 'business' as 50% relates to your employees (food/wine) costs, but not that of the clients - best way to do this is ask waiter for a split bill).

Staff entertaining (whether Christmas or any kind of 'team building' event) is usually fully VAT recoverbale as well. When you invite staff and their partners (or clients/subbies) then you can recover the VAT on costs relating to staff but not partners/clients/subbies).

It keeps the thread just that little bit more exciting! :rolleyes: I probably went a bit over the top, but have had previous dealings with RW, am slightly confused about the other one:o

So do you know whether us (as partners) are treated in the same way as employees? I have tried ringing tax office and they dont know either! they said someone would call me back, but I am not holding my breath...

swanny65

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=529686

History, need i say more........ The correct answer isn't always pleasing. However on this site it is free and, more often than not correct, we should be thankful for people like Ray, Bean, John, Margaret and Boris who give up their time to help.

mogoot

Lifeisbutadream wrote: »

Is there anything in what BorisTheSpider said?

Yes.

Lifeisbutadream wrote: »

Could we have a staff annual party (me and OH are partners in the business) with up to a certain amount tax deductable?

Yes. As was answered at the start of the post, you can have an annual party which is tax-deductable for your staff, but not for subcontractors or clients.

Lifeisbutadream

swanny65 wrote: »

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=529686

History, need i say more........ The correct answer isn't always pleasing. However on this site it is free and, more often than not correct, we should be thankful for people like Ray, Bean, John, Margaret and Boris who give up their time to help.

Dont really understand the need to post this? I have never mentioned not being pleased with answers!

RW did not help, so I therefore didnt thank him. Margaret, I didnt understand what she was asking me. I did thank the rest of the people who did help me.

I always thank people who take the time to help. I dont tend to thank someone who spends time posting rude answers, which arent helpful.