BT Pension Scheme (C) 100% Clawback???

DK68

What is scary is that the Offset from 2016 was in all probability not legally sound. There was no Consultation completed or the Promised neutralising of the Offset laid out in the 2008 Agreement.



A unilateral declaration to bridge to the Single Tier Pension was taken , intercepting 35ths Annual Single Tier State Pension Accrual from April 2016.


Members lose between £100 to £170 per annum of their SPA Pensions for the 2.25 years to Closure.

Offset can be viewed in two parts , the legal Offset subsuming of S2P Offset into STSP Foundation amounts from 2009 - 5th April 2016.

Then the typical scam this country is becoming accustomed to - the interception of the 35ths Annual Accrual of State Pension, even when Members had reached 35/35ths maximum Single Tier State Pension.



the small Allowance in pay that was as per the 2008 Agreement now unwelcome but continued to reduce Pension when S2P additional Pension Offset was no longer possible.



ALL BTPS Members from 2009 - 2018 were exploited from 6th April 2016.


The CWU and the Scheme changed the Offset to a none neutral Pension Reduction outside the 2008 legally binding Pensions Agreement. This accelerated Offsets between 2016 and 2018 for the last 2.25 years of the Scheme prior to Closure (It was known in 2016 that all Members were on their way to or had reached maximum 35 years State Pension under the new STSP calculation of aggregated full years NI).



This was done on purpose and by design with no Consultation and the promised Review Burried by the Trade Unions and the Scheme. The Scheme took Legal advice to do this and chnaged the DEEDS on 5th April 2016.



All Members should contact the Ombudsman about ALL 6th April 2016 onward Offset Accrual as this is a huge scandal invloving around 30,000 people.



Emails to members promising to Review the issue were sent on 10th March 2016 and then the CWU followed up on 27 the March and then the entire Consultation was burried. They referred to it as being 'Subsumed' into the Closure from 2018 and started referring to the BTPS Scheme as being 1/105ths Accrual in 2017. The Scheme is an 80ths Accrual Scheme.



This also meant the lowest earners had the highest Offset as a ratio of Pension. Even Age was used to accelerate the Offset Reduction (those age 16 by April 5th 1978). The older you were in this scenario the higher the Offset. Incredible and against the Schemes own Age Discrimination rules.



Then the icing on the cake for hard working Employees , Overtime and Allowances that are not Pensionable were attached to the Single Tier State Pension fig leaf Reduction (Offset). All Ni able pay.

Making senior Engineers have the highest Offsets , a reduction of Annual Pension at State Pension Age of £1770 with this rising by more than CPI in July 2019 and then Annually from April 2020.


That is the Corporate Britain in 2019. Where is the Pensions Regulation ? Who allowed Bridging to the STSP in 2016 when the Scheme was Contarcted in and Members paying Full NI from 2009 ?



Only a mass Ombusdman case will now make the architects of this travesty reverse the reductions to 2016 Statement Levels. On 2016 every persons Offset was Understated as this so called professional Scheme and its Trustees forgot one aspect of their scandalously continued Offset Calculation, every year between 2008 - 2016 !!!! The S148 Annual Uprating , for all years applied in June 2018 on the Closure Statements (Offset).


That Offset Spike caused an investigation of massive proportion and what has been found is an unacceptable breach of Trust and Agreements.


Any Member that does not follow this up is sponsoring their own State Pension Interception on the BTPS side at State Pension Age. For some this is £500 a year extra Reduction at State Pension Age meaning if they are age 64 or 65 now they will only get one year of their promised BTPS Pension amount.



Two of the current Trade Union Appointed BTPS Trustees (appointed after 2016) made the 2008 Legally binding Agreement on Offsets.


The Scheme has been given 18 months to resovle these issues but all none Member parties have dug in and feel the 2016 version of Offset was Just , justified and lawful.



The Pension Regulator is aware.
Parliament is aware.
The only place Members can now go for reparation is the Ombudsman.





If any Member wants Obudsman case formation details see y32k.org

DK68

a Statement made in late 2017 after the none Consulted Extra reductions from April 2016.


"What is the State Pension Offset?Since 2009, an offset (or reduction) is applied to Section B and C members’ BTPS pensions when they reach State Pension age. When your State Pension starts to be paid, you get a higher state benefit, because in 2009 you stopped ‘contracting out’ of the State Second Pension and started to build up that extra state benefit.Because you get this extra amount from the Government, your BT pension is reduced. The intention was that you’d get broadly the same amount overall at State Pension age (though, due to State Pension changes made by the Government in 2016, it will not exactly match). The application of the State Pension Offset means that your actual overall BTPS build-up rate (‘accrual’ rate) is less than 1/80th once your State Pension starts to be paid and we’ve estimated that for team members, it’s about 1/105th on average.


1/80th x BTPS Pensionable Salary less State Pension Offset=1/105th x BTPS Pensionable Salary on average "


This was the first Members knew of any change to Accrual in the Scheme.


No mention of the March 2016 commenced Offset Review that was simply burried bringing total shame on those parties.

DK68

if you email y32k.org they will supply the Calculation Used , forced from the Scheme.


members @ y32k.org

DK68

to Madeinirelan


how about an engineer age 65 now, having 1 year of £15k Pension and then £1800 Annual Reduction thereafter ? 1.8/23 rds of overall Pension.


It seems ok for a higher pay and pensions manager losing £1k of £30k doesn't it ?
1/38 ths of overall Pension.



Then when you look what has been done to the Infantry it looks rather different doesn't it !


Also you will find your 2017 Offset Statement was understated and will already be far more than £1000. It will grow each year (although its invisible to the Member) by Average Earnings too based on the S148 Order (DWP annual uprating).
Your age and earnings between 2009 - 2017 , up to £40,040 minus AVC's being the key to your very low Offset versus Pension.


The Scheme inverted an S2P Calculation that was designed to benefit lower and Middle earners, reversing the S2P bias and increasing Offset Reductions of the Lower paid. They did this (a higher % of lower earners pay contributing to Offset Reductions) in full knowledge of NEGATIVE impacts in April 2016, as soon as the Offset had no neutralising counter balance at the cessation of S2P.


As soon as Govt. changes were known to be turning Offset extra cash into Years in the Foundation amount of STSP , the Offset had to cease Accrual in April 2016.

The Govt. should not have turned S2P extra Cash into years in the Foundation Amounts but they make the laws through Parliament and they did. People should have had to work more qualifying years towards 35ths Accrual , due to lower foundation years. Keeping the pre 2016 S2P extra as cash.


If that had happened we would at least be able to see a boost in STSP but now this is not so and when you go over the 35 qualifying years in the new calculation, the impact is even worse and you effectively nullify your Foundation Amount inrcreases from the Offset , with each year you work over the new qualifying 35ths SP Accrual.


Speak into the Microphone BTPS Trustees, Prospect and CWU!
and DWP yes you were hopeless yet again ....not just in Foundation amounts but allowing continued bridging exploitation after S2P cessation, in Schemes like BTPS.

Madeinireland

DK68 wrote: »

to Madeinirelan


how about an engineer age 65 now, having 1 year of £15k Pension and then £1800 Annual Reduction thereafter ? 1.8/23 rds of overall Pension.


It seems ok for a higher pay and pensions manager losing £1k of £30k doesn't it ?
1/38 ths of overall Pension.



Then when you look what has been done to the Infantry it looks rather different doesn't it !


Also you will find your 2017 Offset Statement was understated and will already be far more than £1000. It will grow each year (although its invisible to the Member) by Average Earnings too based on the S148 Order (DWP annual uprating).
Your age and earnings between 2009 - 2017 , up to £40,040 minus AVC's being the key to your very low Offset versus Pension.


The Scheme inverted an S2P Calculation that was designed to benefit lower and Middle earners, reversing the S2P bias and increasing Offset Reductions of the Lower paid. They did this (a higher % of lower earners pay contributing to Offset Reductions) in full knowledge of NEGATIVE impacts in April 2016, as soon as the Offset had no neutralising counter balance at the cessation of S2P.


As soon as Govt. changes were known to be turning Offset extra cash into Years in the Foundation amount of STSP , the Offset had to cease Accrual in April 2016.

The Govt. should not have turned S2P extra Cash into years in the Foundation Amounts but they make the laws through Parliament and they did. People should have had to work more qualifying years towards 35ths Accrual , due to lower foundation years. Keeping the pre 2016 S2P extra as cash.


If that had happened we would at least be able to see a boost in STSP but now this is not so and when you go over the 35 qualifying years in the new calculation, the impact is even worse and you effectively nullify your Foundation Amount inrcreases from the Offset , with each year you work over the new qualifying 35ths SP Accrual.


Speak into the Microphone BTPS Trustees, Prospect and CWU!
and DWP yes you were hopeless yet again ....not just in Foundation amounts but allowing continued bridging exploitation after S2P cessation, in Schemes like BTPS.

I am sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about. You need to explain in a far simpler fashion as I get lost almost in every paragraph as you are sometimes using terms and acronyms that I don’t understand.

DK68

Remember hiding behind complexity is how we were placed into this mess as Members of the Scheme. So it is Complex if we are to worry those who brought the Complexity at Members Expense.



AVC = Additional Voluntary Contributions
SPA = State Pension Age
SP = State Pension (Two parts to 2016 BSP (basic) and S2P (additional from being Contracted in)

STSP = Single Tier State Pension from 2016

S148 = Statutory Order / Legislation for Govt. Uprating
S2P = State Second Pension (the only Offset mechanism ever agreed to (2008) a neutral and benign Offset )

CPI = Consumer Prices Index (rigged low inflation)

RPI = Retail Prices Index (closer to real inflation) - Used by EE and Mobile Industry and Trains and Public Rented Sector and Water Companies and Council Tax well in excess of even RPI Inflation

DWP = Department of Work and Pensions



Offset was last Published in Closure Statements of June 2018.
They have not been published since , nor can they be viewed currently apart from on the Closure Statement.

Prior to that they were last seen on the final Annual Pension Statement for 2017.


An acceleration of Offset was noticed (we call this a Signal from Noise) between the 2017 Annual Statements and the 2018 Closure Statement 15 months later.


The Offsets go up twice in the next 10 months , once in July 2019 on the anniversary of the Closure and then every year in April from 2020.


Offsets go up by Avg Earnings S148 Orders made Annually by the DWP as that is what the Scheme laid out in its calculation. This is currently higher than CPI Annual uprating @ 2.8%.

For C Pensions in Payment RPI is used up to 5% but otherwise CPI Annual uprating.



This S148 uprating was never added to the Offsets in any year from 2009 - 2017. Yet it is in the Calculation used in 2018. This S148 Uprating was all added at Closure for all years in 2018. There was no communication on this to Members , just a Spike in Offsets seen.



A £1000 Offset is very low at Closure (versus a £30k Pension) and could indicate AVC's were being paid. There are Engineers with £1760 Offsets and sub £16k Pensions.


Pay up to £40,040 from 2009 - 2018 is what the Offset is based on as that is what S2P Additional State Pension was based on.

It has an aditional age (accelerant) component if you are age 16 by April 5th 1978. This is called 'Working Life' and is expressed in years in the Calculation. The more Working Life you have to SPA the lower the Offset. This is because S2P was designed to benefit lower to middle earners , not penalise them as per the Calculation use in the Scheme. Additional State pension was never intended for High Earners and so earnings above £40,040 from 2009 to 2016 never counted towards S2P or the Offset.



AVC's fortunately suppressed Offsets whilst Overtime and Allowances / Extra Working incredibly Increased Offset (Pension Reductions).

But Members never knew this patently unfair system had kicked in from April 2016.

Is that a better explanation ?

Paul_Herring

Word Salad and Wall-Of-Text. Even I have problems with those posts...

More constructively, they come across as streams of consciousness/brain-dumps, rather than a coherent construct for the consumption of others.

While I have no doubt you have good things to say, with cogent arguments ,how you present them make them impenetrable to anyone, other than yourself, trying to read them.

Sorry.

DK68

Well Paul you are the kind of person the Pension Scheme Admin are looking for...


and while i would defend to the death your right to comment , you are off topic and typing rubbish and perhaps with a little of that foresaid attention seeking commentary.


stay on Topic - People afraid of Pension Clawback -- like those at HSBC and here .... with not a 100% Clawback but up to a 13% Bridging (Clawback) of Pension at SPA.

fwor

DK68 wrote: »

AVC's fortunately suppressed Offsets whilst Overtime and Allowances / Extra Working incredibly Increased Offset (Pension Reductions).

You evidently feel strongly about this, but you need to work on making your posts understandable.

A lot of your sentences (such as the one above) simply don't look like sentences, which makes them extremely difficult to read, and even harder to understand.

DK68

fwor wrote: »

You evidently feel strongly about this, but you need to work on making your posts understandable.

A lot of your sentences (such as the one above) simply don't look like sentences, which makes them extremely difficult to read, and even harder to understand.

read it again ... its not that Shakespearean ...


people who could afford Additional Voluntary Pension Contributions had the knock on effect of lower Pension Clawback and the inverse of that , people who could not afford Additional Contributions but worked overtime and or earned allowances for their families, increased the Clawback Pension Reduction.


Now come on get those synapses warmed up and firing ... just a little effort to stay on topic