Equitable Life with profits pension / takeover.

justaquickie

I contacted EL several days ago as I am concerned they are contravening fairness indicator 3 whereby my, and some others', illustrations appear to fall short; and also that others may be swayed to vote for the proposal if they assume the fairness indicator is being met.

I'd hoped there was a simple mistake that could be easily rectified, or that I had misunderstood the paperwork. After making some checks, EL called back to say they had passed my (now) objection to their solicitors. I expected to hear from them before the vote closes, but sadly nothing as yet, so in a few hours and a couple of clicks I will be voting against the proposal.

I appreciate everybody's circumstances, decision making and appetite for risk is different, so I certainly wouldn't be critical of anybody's voting choice; I feel somewhat conflicted myself. I do, however, find it disconcerting how many appear to intend taking the uplift and running asap, and just wonder how events will pan out if the proposal is voted through; especially for the less savvy - and I include myself in this number.

Thank you to all of you who have contributed to this discussion.

Scot_39

On line deadline still 10am on 30th October - but then you know that.

You have my sympathies - and shouldn't in any way feel bad about not voting - you are unlikely to be alone. I have found it quite time consuming and if honest quite stressful at times - and still torn if my call is right even after voting.
As I understand it - the two votes are percentages of those who actually vote - 50% members and 75% by value for scheme and 75% of members for articles - according to booklet A.

The society will expect many people to abstain. Part of the rational of setting the 75% thresholds is to try to ensure a majority of all members (for example 75% of a 66.7 % turn-out gives a simple majority) giving a more suitable / defensible mandate for such significant change.

Maffo65

From my perspective, the potential benefits of switching to Utmost far outweight the risks.

Apart from anything else, the Equitable's Capital Distribution values are not guaranteed, just like their 3.5% p.a. growth rate which in recent years has proved to be a paltry 2%.

It's even debatable whether the Equitable is equipped to survive long in the event the Proposal is voted down.
They are clearly hoping for policyholders to vote in favour, and IMO that should tell you all you need to know about their future expectations without a deal.

It seems to me that a few posters are getting too hang up on the minutiae of the Projected Values of their policies after the transfer to Utmost, and missing the wood for the trees in the process.

It's return OF capital over return ON capital - particularly if you are a risk averse investor.

Good luck to all, whatever you decide.

Scot_39

Yet another 2 reports issued by EL to add to the long reading list before the EGM and Court Hearings.
The Chief Actuary initial supplementary report - and the With-Profits Actuary's supplementary report - both dated 28/10/19.
https://www.equitable.co.uk/ProposalAug2019/pdf/Chief%20Actuary%E2%80%99s%20Supplementary%20Report.pdf
https://www.equitable.co.uk/ProposalAug2019/pdf/With-Profit%20Actuary%E2%80%99s%20Supplementary%20Report.pdf
Final version of former guess to follow - when ? - as this was based on draft - not signed off final figures - following Sep 30 calc date.

I missed these - and in any case issued after I voted - but would not have changed my "for vote" - and fact it would have strengthened it - and probably swayed many others to vote "for" I suspect.


My two takeaways underpinning my decision - from a quick read through.

SCR Coverage - Dropped to 120% - Gloomy Reading if Vote is To Stay
Pretty much confirms the increased pending risk / "doom" on the remain side - much lower solvency coverage due to lower rates.
The regulatory measure of solvency - SCR - the official figure reported to the PRA - down to 120 in June from 159 in december

Uplift to Illustration Uplift if Vote is to Go

"the total uplift applied to each Scheme Policy has increased".




When Do we Find Out Vote Results - Friday ?

pafpcg

Scot_39 wrote: »

However in her report - the "with-profits" actuary quotes voting levels so far - c24% of members, representing c41% of value - as of the 28th Oct - so perhaps not so quick after all. But she obviously doesn't say which way cast - for or against.
I was surprised so low - but then I didn't vote to the 26th and others here the 28th - so could have reached much higher by this mornings on-line deadline.

Thanks for finding the new documents.

I too am surprised by the apparent low turnout, but it may be distorted by the way, or more specifically when, the votes are counted. I'd expect the Electoral Reform Society to be using a machine to count the postal votes which may be done in one big batch in the next 24 hours; the number of votes quoted in the report may be only the online votes - that's my speculation!
EDIT: Ignore the speculation - a closer reading of the report in Section 4.7 reveals that voting forms must be being checked on receipt since policyholders sending in unsigned forms are being contacted.

The only conclusion we can draw is that the early voters have larger than average policy-fund sizes. It may be that the trustees of a few of the group schemes have voted which will have a disproportionate effect on the vote-value number.

EDIT: Section 4.25 reveals that post-transfer investment instructions have been received for 7% of the value of with-profits scheme - I'll go out on a limb and claim that anyone who has already returned their investment form will also have voted "Yes"! (7%? - that's miserable!)

PS: My partner voted on the 22nd.

Scot_39

Decided to cut my last post down to the bear facts only



Kind of angry about the timing - there is information in these new documents that might well have swayed votes - and I may have been putting an overly negative spin on it.

pafpcg

Scot_39 wrote: »

Decided to cut my last post down to the bear facts only

Kind of angry about the timing - there is information in these new documents that might well have swayed votes - and I may have been putting an overly negative spin on it.

What ruffles my feathers is the frequent references by Equitable-appointed experts to how content they are about the communications between Equitable and the members. Yet the Equitable are issuing a steady dribble of new information on their web-site (some of it, as you have pointed out, highly relevant to the members' decision-making) and yet making no effort (that I'm aware of) to bring it to the attention of the members. OK, posting out flyers is expensive, but they could have set-up an opt-in email alert system, or are there alerts on Facebook which I'd never see?

[Deleted User]

pafpcg wrote: »

What ruffles my feathers is the frequent references by Equitable-appointed experts to how content they are about the communications between Equitable and the members. Yet the Equitable are issuing a steady dribble of new information on their web-site (some of it, as you have pointed out, highly relevant to the members' decision-making) and yet making no effort (that I'm aware of) to bring it to the attention of the members. OK, posting out flyers is expensive, but they could have set-up an opt-in email alert system, or are there alerts on Facebook which I'd never see?

They are not incentivized to service their clients well. People and companies respond to incentives

woolly_wombat

'The Scheme and the Change to the Articles were both passed by an overwhelming majority'.

https://www.equitable.co.uk/ProposalAug2019/index.html#voting

I am pleased with that outcome.

Maffo65

Over 90% of policyholders voted in favour of both the Scheme and Change to the Articles. Full details available on the EL website.
Now, that's what I call a landslide!
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The next step is a High Court hearing starting on 22 November 2019, where Equitable Life will ask for formal approval to implement the changes. Assuming High Court approval, the Proposal will take effect on 1 January 2020. If the Proposal goes ahead, most With-Profits Policies, except those governed under German law, will be convertedto Unit-Linked Policies, meaning policyholders will need to make an investment choice if they haven’t already.

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[FONT=&quot]Considering all the due diligence done by EL and the overwhelmingly positive result, I very much doubt the High Court would not approve.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]At this stage, how many posters are thinking of sticking with Utmost, and who is planning to switch to another provider?
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