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Is this Barclayloan Enforceable?
howardelvy
Posts: 3 Newbie
Is my debt to Barclays irredeemably unenforceable?
I have a reconstructed credit agreement, received from Barclays. It relates to a loan I took out in 2003. It Defaulted 2006, and I have been repaying Barclays on an AP ever since. It was never re-assigned or sold on.
It contains prescribed terms, states the amount credit; the rate of interest; and the number and amount of repayments to be made.
However:
1. the reconstruction contains no date;
2. it does not contain my address when I took out the loan;
3. the bank’s telephone number is different;
4. there are no cancellation rights in the small print
5. The stated APR is 10.9%. I have run that past 2 separate websites and they came out with an APR of 10.526%. However, on another website it appears that with an APR of 10.9% interest would be only £60 out– so does such a small amount make any difference to the validity of the recon CCA?)
6. I have obtained a SAR from Barclays containing screen shots of thir internal email that says “This is an old Masterloan and there is no copy on Edostar.”
7. Another internal email that says: “There was no foa in Edostar we need to reconstruct the agreement.”
8. An internal email that says: “Need to refer to Legal re CCA issues. I’m doing the CRA request again at this point, just looking into the validity of the agreements he has had so don’t make any promises about getting new documentation.”
9. An internal email that says: “The information is correct…The Masterloan was for £15,000, drawn on X 2003 and £4,236 interest was immediately applied. This was apparently common practice for this type of loan. When the loan went to recoveries at Barclaycard, we believe the proportion of interest which did not apply – i.e. the amount relevant to the loan after the date the loan was charged off – should have been refunded. Looking at the entries to the Masterloan this was not done. Whilst there is no PPI premium to refund or any issue of a mis-sell, it would appear there will have to be some refund of interest. The exact amount will need to be calculated at the 10.9% rate….The reconstructed credit agreement is therefore correct as per the s.77 request.”
10. An internal email that says: “What do we normally send for Masterloans where the original document is not available... At this moment this could result in us having to write-off the balance.”
11. An internal email that says: “Interest does not appear to have been refunded when the loan went to recoveries at Barclaycard, calculate amount due and apply.”
12. An internal email that says: “as a refinance arrangement, this agreement was exclusively conducted by post and phone, in which case no cancellation rights would have applied at that time. There is no cancellation rights in the agreement because there would not have been any cancellation rights in this case. Our refinance loans have always been transacted either at branch offices or totally through the post following telephone conversations."
13. A letter from Barclays stating: "At the time this agreement was entered into, there would have been no cancellation rights applicable in either of these circumstances. We therefore consider that the copy agreement we sent to you in response to your s.77 request contains all the relevant terms, complies with all requirements applicable at the time the agreement was entered into and is therefore a true copy for the purposes of s77. Our agreement with you is therefore legally enforceable.”
I do not have a copy of the original agreement. But I do recall how I applied for it – by post. The loan offer came in the post as promotional ‘cheque’ drawn out to me, which I had to return to Barclaycard in the post.
When I complained some years after the Default, they re-scheduled the debt with approx. £4,356 interest they charged up-front being taken off the debt. My original loan was £15,000 plus £4,356 interest (£19,356 in total payable in monthly £322 over 5 years). The balance is now approx.. £5,000 and on an AP.
I have a reconstructed credit agreement, received from Barclays. It relates to a loan I took out in 2003. It Defaulted 2006, and I have been repaying Barclays on an AP ever since. It was never re-assigned or sold on.
It contains prescribed terms, states the amount credit; the rate of interest; and the number and amount of repayments to be made.
However:
1. the reconstruction contains no date;
2. it does not contain my address when I took out the loan;
3. the bank’s telephone number is different;
4. there are no cancellation rights in the small print
5. The stated APR is 10.9%. I have run that past 2 separate websites and they came out with an APR of 10.526%. However, on another website it appears that with an APR of 10.9% interest would be only £60 out– so does such a small amount make any difference to the validity of the recon CCA?)
6. I have obtained a SAR from Barclays containing screen shots of thir internal email that says “This is an old Masterloan and there is no copy on Edostar.”
7. Another internal email that says: “There was no foa in Edostar we need to reconstruct the agreement.”
8. An internal email that says: “Need to refer to Legal re CCA issues. I’m doing the CRA request again at this point, just looking into the validity of the agreements he has had so don’t make any promises about getting new documentation.”
9. An internal email that says: “The information is correct…The Masterloan was for £15,000, drawn on X 2003 and £4,236 interest was immediately applied. This was apparently common practice for this type of loan. When the loan went to recoveries at Barclaycard, we believe the proportion of interest which did not apply – i.e. the amount relevant to the loan after the date the loan was charged off – should have been refunded. Looking at the entries to the Masterloan this was not done. Whilst there is no PPI premium to refund or any issue of a mis-sell, it would appear there will have to be some refund of interest. The exact amount will need to be calculated at the 10.9% rate….The reconstructed credit agreement is therefore correct as per the s.77 request.”
10. An internal email that says: “What do we normally send for Masterloans where the original document is not available... At this moment this could result in us having to write-off the balance.”
11. An internal email that says: “Interest does not appear to have been refunded when the loan went to recoveries at Barclaycard, calculate amount due and apply.”
12. An internal email that says: “as a refinance arrangement, this agreement was exclusively conducted by post and phone, in which case no cancellation rights would have applied at that time. There is no cancellation rights in the agreement because there would not have been any cancellation rights in this case. Our refinance loans have always been transacted either at branch offices or totally through the post following telephone conversations."
13. A letter from Barclays stating: "At the time this agreement was entered into, there would have been no cancellation rights applicable in either of these circumstances. We therefore consider that the copy agreement we sent to you in response to your s.77 request contains all the relevant terms, complies with all requirements applicable at the time the agreement was entered into and is therefore a true copy for the purposes of s77. Our agreement with you is therefore legally enforceable.”
I do not have a copy of the original agreement. But I do recall how I applied for it – by post. The loan offer came in the post as promotional ‘cheque’ drawn out to me, which I had to return to Barclaycard in the post.
When I complained some years after the Default, they re-scheduled the debt with approx. £4,356 interest they charged up-front being taken off the debt. My original loan was £15,000 plus £4,356 interest (£19,356 in total payable in monthly £322 over 5 years). The balance is now approx.. £5,000 and on an AP.
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Comments
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Yes they can send you a reconstituted agreement if you lost your own copy agreement.
So it looks the loan is enforceable to me.0 -
Did you get the agreement in response to a 'prove it' letter, an SAR or by simply requesting it?
AFAIAA it should at least contain the date its taken out and the account number if you are going down the 'prove it' route. If you've put in an SAR then they can supply a simple printout of a typical agreement from that period without details.
DarrenXbigman's guide to a happy life.
Eat properly
Sleep properly
Save some money0 -
I didn't know that all reconstructed agreements were valid, I thought they had to meet certain standards. As I said, there is no date on it. Neither are there cancellation rights (the bank in their emails and letter state that cancellation rights were not required for telephone applications in 2003, but my application was by post. However, I cannot prove that). The recon has a more recent address than my 2003 address on it. However, the agreement does have the loan number.
All in all, you feel that it is enforceable?0 -
If that were the case then Barclays would simply amend it to meet those supposed standards - yes the loan would be enforceable.0
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I think most loans have a 14 day cooling off period, cancellation after 16 years might be a step too far.howardelvy wrote: »I didn't know that all reconstructed agreements were valid, I thought they had to meet certain standards. As I said, there is no date on it. Neither are there cancellation rights (the bank in their emails and letter state that cancellation rights were not required for telephone applications in 2003, but my application was by post. However, I cannot prove that). The recon has a more recent address than my 2003 address on it. However, the agreement does have the loan number.
All in all, you feel that it is enforceable?"We act as though comfort and luxury are the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about” – Albert Einstein0 -
Clive woody, that is not the point being made. If I am unclear that is my fault. The point I am trying to make - badly it appears - is that cancellation rights should have been in the original, 2003 agreement. If not, then the reconstructed CCA cannot be a true copy. I am not sure how you interpret that as me trying to cancel the loan LOL. I am trying to discern if the recon CCA is enforceable.
From what I can gather here, Barclays can simply add what they want retrospectively anyway. I don’t understand why there is any point asking them to provide a true copy of a CCA if they can make up what they want, including a (slightly) wrong APR.0 -
If you borrowed it, repay it. Thats what my dad taught me. I know standards have slipped with the snowflake generation though.0
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howardelvy wrote: »Clive woody, that is not the point being made. If I am unclear that is my fault. The point I am trying to make - badly it appears - is that cancellation rights should have been in the original, 2003 agreement. If not, then the reconstructed CCA cannot be a true copy. I am not sure how you interpret that as me trying to cancel the loan LOL. I am trying to discern if the recon CCA is enforceable.
From what I can gather here, Barclays can simply add what they want retrospectively anyway. I don’t understand why there is any point asking them to provide a true copy of a CCA if they can make up what they want, including a (slightly) wrong APR.
Indeed they can BUT Barclays did give you an accurate CCA with all the belts and braces WHEN you took out the loan.
Not their fault is it if you lost your copy?
It has been proven in court that a re constituted agreement can be issued to you.0 -
What you should of done is stopped paying the loan in 2006 - it would not be enforceable now.
Try and get another loan or money transfer card, you may be able to offer a full and final settlement of say £3000 due to the time scales involved.0 -
If you feel the reconstituted copy is missing information that you need, then send them a polite note asking them to update this and provide a new version. You will have been given a copy you read and agreed to back in 2003.howardelvy wrote: »Clive woody, that is not the point being made. If I am unclear that is my fault. The point I am trying to make - badly it appears - is that cancellation rights should have been in the original, 2003 agreement. If not, then the reconstructed CCA cannot be a true copy. I am not sure how you interpret that as me trying to cancel the loan LOL. I am trying to discern if the recon CCA is enforceable.
From what I can gather here, Barclays can simply add what they want retrospectively anyway. I don’t understand why there is any point asking them to provide a true copy of a CCA if they can make up what they want, including a (slightly) wrong APR.
The fact that you have been making repayments for the best part of 16 years suggests to me you have acknowledged this debt, but if you wish to dispute this with their lawyers then I suspect you will be in for a tough time.
Best bet would be to increase your payments to get rid of this ASAP :money:"We act as though comfort and luxury are the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about” – Albert Einstein0
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