Lost my bonus

Les79

WeakPath wrote: »

My performance was good enough to earn bonus haha.

Jumped through hoops to earn it when I could have easily relaxed and cruised through in my sales figures which I would have done had I not been lied too

Righto, so what does the documentation (in your contract or employee handbook etc) say about achieving the bonus?


What are the "hoops"?

jonnygee2

Jumped through hoops to earn it when I could have easily relaxed and cruised through in my sales figures which I would have done had I not been lied too

Only just read this. What an appalling attitude! Bonus or not, it is still your job, you are still getting paid.

For most people, it's 'do the best you can or you get fired'.

Les79

jonnygee2 wrote: »

Only just read this. What an appalling attitude! Bonus or not, it is still your job, you are still getting paid.

For most people, it's 'do the best you can or you get fired'.

It's not that bad.


OP needs to operate at a baseline level to get their basic pay. The bonus is discretionary based on performance.


If they are being denied a bonus due to a disciplinary then I can appreciate why they would feel like they should've took their foot off the pedal with regards to their sales work.


Though the disciplinary itself is probably the bigger indicator of any potential attitude issues...

Undervalued

jonnygee2 wrote: »

I feel that some of the things you've been told are wrong, for example that because a contract says a bonus is 'discresionary', that gives employers carte blanche to withdraw it as they please. This isn't accurate - rules about acting fairly and reasonably still apply. 'Discretion' must still be made with reasonable grounds.

Still, being given a warning sounds like something that would be considered a reasonable reason for not paying a bonus (or at least more reasonable than if your employer just withdrew it randomly).

One key issue is you were told it wouldn't affect your bonus, when it did. Do you have any record of this? Who told you it and it what context?

Discretion mustn't be perversely applied. So discretion can still very wide as long as it is not so far off the mark it could be called perverse.

That said the facts still remain that the OP has been found to be a fault in a disciplinary hearing and a formal "verbal warning" issued.

Rightly or wrongly the OP didn't appeal that decision so whether or not it was correct, or whether they may have won an appeal, is now a completely moot point.

It is also worth noting that you cannot challenge any disciplinary sanction short of dismissal at an employment tribunal.

They claim they were told that the disciplinary finding wouldn't affect the current year's bonus. However, it seems they have no evidence to back up that claim. Given that it would be quite common for a disciplinary sanction to affect a discretionary bonus, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary I suspect a tribunal would side with the employer on the balance of probabilities.

So, regardless of the rights or wrongs of what has happened in the past, given where we are now I still feel the OP would be best advised to let this drop.

jonnygee2

They claim they were told that the disciplinary finding wouldn't affect the current year's bonus. However, it seems they have no evidence to back up that claim.

But the OP has said he had two note takers were present when this question was asked. What makes you think he has no evidence?

I think if the OP has (which from what they've said so far seems to be the case):

- Written bonus criteria, and evidence he has met those criteria
- Evidence he was told the disciplinary wouldn't affect bonus

Then there would be a very good chance of winning the bonus back in an employment tribunal - at least enough of one to speak to a lawyer.

I think it would be reasonable to at least take this up with the employer. Whether it's worth then consulting a lawyer etc probably depends on how large the bonus is against how important it is for them to have a continued positive relationship with the employer.

Undervalued

jonnygee2 wrote: »

But the OP has said he had two note takers were present when this question was asked. What makes you think he has no evidence?

I think if the OP has (which from what they've said so far seems to be the case):

- Written bonus criteria, and evidence he has met those criteria
- Evidence he was told the disciplinary wouldn't affect bonus

Then there would be a very good chance of winning the bonus back in an employment tribunal - at least enough of one to speak to a lawyer.

I think it would be reasonable to at least take this up with the employer. Whether it's worth then consulting a lawyer etc probably depends on how large the bonus is against how important it is for them to have a continued positive relationship with the employer.

Because of the way I read the very first post the OP said.....

now i’m Being told my bonus is lost because that is on my record.

but I certainly agree it could be read either way.

Without seeing all of the terms and conditions of the bonus scheme
and having written confirmation that the OP was told it would not affect the bonus it is difficult to say more. The OP hasn't answered anybody's questions about either point.

Nor have they said how long they have worked for this firm.....

Brynsam

jonnygee2 wrote: »

Then there would be a very good chance of winning the bonus back in an employment tribunal - at least enough of one to speak to a lawyer.

Keep a sense of proportion - having a job is vastly more important these days than having a bonus.

jonnygee2

Keep a sense of proportion - having a job is vastly more important these days than having a bonus.

You don't know what the OPs job prospects are, or how large the bonus is, or whether keeping the job with this employer is a priority for them, so where exactly is your 'sense of proportion' coming from?

You can't baselessly assume that keeping the job is more important than recovering the bonus. I clearly stated that whether it's worth then consulting a lawyer etc probably depends on how large the bonus is against how important it is for them to have a continued positive relationship with the employer.

That's a decision for the OP to make once they understand their position. Not for you to assume without any knowledge of their personal circumstances.

Ja7188

I had 17 pages added to the notes of the disciplinary about my investigation into the incident which cause the guy to adjourn the meeting for over an hour. If I was in the wrong I would have held my hands up. But it was nonsense.

What is your basis for saying it was nonsense? Since the disciplinary process was extensive and involved enough detail to fill 17+ pages, it appears not to have been nonsense in the eyes of others.

Jumped through hoops to earn it when I could have easily relaxed and cruised through in my sales figures which I would have done had I not been lied too

What exactly did you do that involved 'jumping through hoops'...? Also, you appear to implying that you didn't hit your sales figures - is that correct? If so, you could most likely be disciplined for non-performance.

You don't know what the OPs job prospects are, or how large the bonus is, or whether keeping the job with this employer is a priority for them, so where exactly is your 'sense of proportion' coming from?

You can't baselessly assume that keeping the job is more important than recovering the bonus. I clearly stated that whether it's worth then consulting a lawyer etc probably depends on how large the bonus is against how important it is for them to have a continued positive relationship with the employer.

That's a decision for the OP to make once they understand their position. Not for you to assume without any knowledge of their personal circumstances.

Fair point, but I can certainly see where Brynsam is coming from. It would be interesting to know whether anyone here to point to a case in which an employee has managed to recover a discretionary bonus from an employer without destroying their relationship and ending up moving on in fairly short order.

I'd be very surprised if there doesn't exist something somewhere in writing that explicitly states that bonuses are at the discretion of the company and can be withheld for pretty much any reason. There may well also be a clause that states that the company may amend or withdraw the bonus scheme at any time - so I guess the employer could rely on this too.

It sounds like the employer may well want rid of the OP and is therefore 'gently' encouraging them to move on!

jonnygee2

I'd be very surprised if there doesn't exist something somewhere in writing that explicitly states that bonuses are at the discretion of the company and can be withheld for pretty much any reason. There may well also be a clause that states that the company may amend or withdraw the bonus scheme at any time - so I guess the employer could rely on this too.

See my post above about these clauses. They are not a get out of jail free card for employers and there is a lot of case law around these clauses being wrongly applied.

The contract often says 'absolute discretion of the employer', but this doesn't exempt employers from the need to be 'fair' in their discretion.

I have some experience here because I once successfully claimed a bonus back against an employer. A lawyer took this on no win, no fee, saying the case was simple.

Of course, it was very different, starting with the fact that I didn't have a disciplinary against me (and a few more factors too). But I did have one of those clauses in my contract, and written on the bonus criteria. So I'm pretty certain when I say that such a clause alone does not mean that the bonus withdrawal was justifiable.