F&F offers, or do I need to? Advice needed..

Mozziebite65

Hi all. I would value any opinions or advice from the very knowledgeable folk on here. In a nutshell, I have an outstanding debt of approx. £10000, all of which originally date from at least 15 years ago. These debts are shared between 3 DCAs, bought from the original creditors.

These break down roughly as follows:
£1800 Cabot - originally from Barclaycard
£4200 NCO - originally from Amex
£4200 Restons Solicitors (acting on behalf of Arrow Global) - originally from an HSBC loan.

All of these debts have long dropped off my credit score (which is actually at a very healthy 976 / 999 on Experian..).

I am currently, and have been for a long time, on a DMA, currently with MoneyPlus after they took over from Money Village. MoneyPlus have recently put their fees up to £44, which I feel is an extortionate percentage of the £110 pm I currently pay them, so I’m considering trying to get as much of this sorted out privately as I can. Due to a recent small inheritance, I could make some F&F offers but I’m not in a position to do more. Or maybe I don’t even have to. So:

Back in February, after reading a lot of the advice on this forum, I requested a copy of my CCAs from each of the three DCAs. So here’s my situation as it stands:

1. Cabot responded within a few weeks with a letter stating that they (or Barclaycard, the original creditors) were unable to provide the required documentation, and that they would be “temporarily” ceasing collection of the account> Here’s a snippet of their letter:

"Thank you for your request for information under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Unfortunately it appears that Barclaycard are unable to provide the requested information at this time. Therefore, I can confirm that Cabot Financial have taken the decision to temporarily cease collection of this account. Please note that this decision is not to be confused or interpreted as a write-off of the outstanding balance on your account as the debt legally remains. If at any stage the documents become available, we will forward these to you and the account will become enforceable once more. In addition I can confirm that due to the time elapsed this entry should no longer appear on your credit file."

2. NCO didn’t respond. I contacted them via phone a few weeks ago to chase it up. Here is a snippet of what they sent me on December 1st:.

"We are writing in regards to our recent telephone conversation. The information you provided has been duly noted. In regards to your CCA request, we have only received the Terms and Conditions and we are continuing to request the original agreement from the legal owners Arrow Global. Once we have a further update we will be in contact."

3. Restons didn’t respond. Long story short, I recently found out they had an old address on file so that’s probably the reason. When I eventually managed to speak to them, they admitted that they didn’t have any CCA documentation but that I should speak to Arrow Global directly and consult independent advice (not sure what they were saying here - they were rather evasive). I asked them to send me written confirmation of what they told me over the phone, but as yet I haven’t received anything. I have sent Arrow a letter requesting the CCA (the template from National Debt Line, which I used originally). I haven’t heard back, but I’ve only just sent it.

So, I’m looking for some advice here.

1. With regard to Cabot, even though they said they were no longer chasing collection, I have continued to give them money every month. As I haven’t heard any more from them regarding the CCA, I can only assume that they have essentially written it off. So as far as I can see, I could simply stop paying them. Alternatively, I could contact them and offer a one-off payment of say £500 to officially close the account. Essentially, a take it or leave it. If they turned it down, I could just make no further contact with them and see what happens.

2. With NCO, it seems to be a similar situation. They haven’t said they are ceasing collection of the debt like Cabot, but how long should I give them to get the original agreement from Arrow? Again, should I contact them and make a F&F offer of say £1000, or should I just stop payments?

3. With Restons / Arrow I should probably wait a while and see if they get back to me. If they don’t, I suppose the same situation applies as to the other two.

Also, am i right in thinking that if a DCA cannot produce a requested CCA - and assuming that they never do - and that the debt has fallen off the credit file, that it if completely unenforceable in any way? I want to be sure that I've read advice on here correctly.

I really don’t know the proper (or best) way to proceed here. All thoughts and advice would be really appreciated. I’m sorry about the slightly long-winded post, but I wanted to make my position as clear as possible.

Many thanks…

[Deleted User]

I would just tell you before anyone else does that your "credit score" is a made up number the only person that sees it is you.

Mozziebite65

venison wrote: »

I would just tell you before anyone else does that your "credit score" is a made up number the only person that sees it is you.

OK, thanks for that. I hadn't seen my Experian score until the other day (I think it was through MSE). That's OK. I do watch it on Clearscore too and it's OK. Better than once upon a time....

fatbelly

Mozziebite65 wrote: »

With regard to Cabot, even though they said they were no longer chasing collection, I have continued to give them money every month. As I haven’t heard any more from them regarding the CCA, I can only assume that they have essentially written it off. So as far as I can see, I could simply stop paying them. Alternatively, I could contact them and offer a one-off payment of say £500 to officially close the account. Essentially, a take it or leave it. If they turned it down, I could just make no further contact with them and see what happens.

2. With NCO, it seems to be a similar situation. They haven’t said they are ceasing collection of the debt like Cabot, but how long should I give them to get the original agreement from Arrow? Again, should I contact them and make a F&F offer of say £1000, or should I just stop payments?

3. With Restons / Arrow I should probably wait a while and see if they get back to me. If they don’t, I suppose the same situation applies as to the other two.

I really don’t know the proper way to proceed here. All thoughts and advice would be really appreciated. I’m sorry about the slightly long-winded post, but I wanted to make my position as clear as possible.

Many thanks…

That's a reasonable position. But I think the main action you should take is to ditch moneyplus. Stop the regular payments. You are either going to settle by F&F or not at all.

If you do offer F&F then 25% is the place to start. And I'd be reluctant to be driven much higher than that for these 3.

Mozziebite65

Many thanks Fatbelly. I certainly agree with you about Moneyplus. Their fees are ridiculous and I'm not sure what value I'm actually getting for it.

Mozziebite65

UPDATE:

I have received a letter back from Restons. Apparently they did indeed respond to my CCA request back in March. They maintain that a CCJ was issued against me on that account back in 2008. I lived out of the country from 2007-09 so I wasn't aware of any CCJ, and it has dropped off my credit file. The letter they have sent me includes the following:

"Please note that as this matter is subject to a County Court Judgment, entered against you on May 09, 2008, your liability has been determined by the Court. In view of this, your request is irrelevant at this stage and your £1 fee has been destroyed."

Does this sound like a valid stance, or are they trying it on? Regardless of the fact that I wasn't aware of any CCJ - and can't see any record of one - does this absolve them of any responsibility to produce a CCA on request?

sourcrates

Mozziebite65 wrote: »

UPDATE:

I have received a letter back from Restons. Apparently they did indeed respond to my CCA request back in March. They maintain that a CCJ was issued against me on that account back in 2008. I lived out of the country from 2007-09 so I wasn't aware of any CCJ, and it has dropped off my credit file. The letter they have sent me includes the following:

"Please note that as this matter is subject to a County Court Judgment, entered against you on May 09, 2008, your liability has been determined by the Court. In view of this, your request is irrelevant at this stage and your £1 fee has been destroyed."

Does this sound like a valid stance, or are they trying it on? Regardless of the fact that I wasn't aware of any CCJ - and can't see any record of one - does this absolve them of any responsibility to produce a CCA on request?

Yes it does, once legal action has been taken.


Thing is that was ten years ago, so to further enforce this "alleged CCJ" they would need to go back to court, and, due to the passage of time, its doubtful there request would be granted.


You may want to remind them of that fact when they are considering your next offer.

Mozziebite65

Thanks Sourcrates. So in the case of the Restons debt, the debt is still enforceable even in the absence of a CCA? But taking your advice, would it be worth making them a F&F for, say, 25%? And in the case of the other two, should I do the same or just ignore them until such time as they "might" produce the CCAs? What would your advice be in my position? Many thanks..

sourcrates

Non production of a valid copy agreement, in response to a CCA request, renders that account unenforceable in court.


But, you cannot request CCA after legal action has been taken, it is then too late.


Creditors who have not taken legal action, and are so far unable to produce a copy agreement, should be treated the same as if the agreement was never going to become available, they are supposed to tell you if they cannot comply.


Some creditors can take a year or more to find it, some never find it, how you deal with this is up to you, you either keep paying, stop paying, or make an offer to settle.


Accounts were CCA`s cannot be found are notoriously difficult to deal with, the creditor can still chase you, they just cannot obtain judgement against you in court, normally once they know you are not going to pay, they put you to the bottom of the pile, and concentrate on those who they can get payment from.


Other options for them include, selling the debt on again, which means you have to tell the new owner no agreement exists, or they may write the debt off, or just simply stop chasing you, they won`t make life easy for you, usually these things don`t get decided until non payment reaches 6 years and the debt becomes statute barred.

Mozziebite65

Thanks again Sourcrates. That clarifies things somewhat. Your advice is much appreciated..

Mozziebite65

I have drafted the following email to Cabot, and I'll be doing one similar for £1000 to NCO. Does this seem OK, or should I add anything else? Thoughts appreciated..

Dear Sir/Madam

Without prejudice

Account No: **********

As your records will show, I formally requested a CCA pertaining to the above account in February this year. You replied stating that you were unable to provide this and, as a result, Cabot were temporarily ceasing collection of the account with the caveat that the debt would become enforceable again should the original documents come available at a later time.

You will note that, despite this, I have continued to make payments to you.

However, as a further 9 months have passed with no further correspondence regarding the requested CCA, I have decided to cease payments as of the beginning of 2019. I feel that a more than reasonable time has passed.

However, as a matter of goodwill, I can raise £500 and I want to offer this as full and final settlement of the account. I am making this offer on the clear understanding that, if you accept it, neither you nor any associate company will take any other action to collect or enforce this debt in any way and that I will be released from any liability. I will withdraw this offer if I have not heard from you by the close of business on the 31st December 2018.

This account has long fallen off my credit file, but if you accept this offer I will need you to confirm that the above account has been paid and closed.

I can pay the amount I have offered immediately upon receipt of your written agreement of this offer along with payment details. Please respond as soon as possible by return of email AND post.

Sincerely,