Legal liability

firely2327

Hi folks


Urgently seeking some sound advice on the following please:


I've been employed ft with my employer for over 4 1/2 years now. My contract gives my specific job title (basically teaching) indicating the main reason for my employment, but also states that I may be expected to undertake other 'duties'. Back in spring my boss two rungs up asked me face-to-face to undertake a Health and Safety role (in addition to my main duties), primarily involving risk assessments for our department. I didn't hesitate as I'd had a good idea this task may be asked of me due to a colleague retiring. My conditions, which the boss agreed to were 1) that I receive some training, which I have had last week... finally, and 2) that I could meet with the legal department to discuss my legal position/liability. Over the last 3-4 months when I bring up the latter I'm told they're working on it. A few weeks ago however the boss informed me that the legal people don't wish to meet with me. I've been offered nothing on paper which clarifies what is expected of me in the duty or what my legal obligations and liabilities are. I am concerned that, should anything happen and I've my name signed on the Risk Assessment as having deemed it accurate and reliable, I may be at greater legal risk of prosecution than I presently am. For me this is a real sticking point, and has been since spring. During training last week we covered briefly, the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 and I believe it's section 2 which mentions the possibility of employees being prosecuted and facing unlimited fines and imprisonment of up to 2 years.


I thus have two main concerns
1. The legal implications of signing a RA and something happening, indicating that something was missed on the RA. I'm not an expert.
2. Can I refuse to sign the forms and still keep my job?


I'm really frustrated and worried, particularly about the latter. The middle boss last week indicated I was being very unreasonable. Other colleagues don't realise there's an issue and assume they can send RAs to me. For my part I've been advising them of any obvious changes needed to the documents, but have not signed. I've offered my middle boss my continued support in this but have point blank refused to sign them until the legal situation is clarified. She was less than pleased.

jobbingmusician

Compromise? Add to your signature something along the lines of

- This RA is based on the assessor having attended a [one day course on H & S assessment - complete as appropriate]. The signatory does not have professional expertise, and any potential liability is therefore limited to the expertise conferred by this basic level of training.

You have then demonstrated clearly that you are not signing as an expert, IMHO.....

TELLIT01

Put your concerns in writing and state that until you have clarification of your legal position/liability for H&S role you are not willing to undertake any work in relation to those responsibilities. That will / should force a reaction from them one way or another.

nicechap

firely2327 wrote: »

Hi folks


Urgently seeking some sound advice on the following please:


I've been employed ft with my employer for over 4 1/2 years now. My contract gives my specific job title (basically teaching) indicating the main reason for my employment, but also states that I may be expected to undertake other 'duties'. Back in spring my boss two rungs up asked me face-to-face to undertake a Health and Safety role (in addition to my main duties), primarily involving risk assessments for our department. I didn't hesitate as I'd had a good idea this task may be asked of me due to a colleague retiring. My conditions, which the boss agreed to were 1) that I receive some training, which I have had last week... finally, and 2) that I could meet with the legal department to discuss my legal position/liability. Over the last 3-4 months when I bring up the latter I'm told they're working on it. A few weeks ago however the boss informed me that the legal people don't wish to meet with me. I've been offered nothing on paper which clarifies what is expected of me in the duty or what my legal obligations and liabilities are. I am concerned that, should anything happen and I've my name signed on the Risk Assessment as having deemed it accurate and reliable, I may be at greater legal risk of prosecution than I presently am. For me this is a real sticking point, and has been since spring. During training last week we covered briefly, the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 and I believe it's section 2 which mentions the possibility of employees being prosecuted and facing unlimited fines and imprisonment of up to 2 years.


I thus have two main concerns
1. The legal implications of signing a RA and something happening, indicating that something was missed on the RA. I'm not an expert.
2. Can I refuse to sign the forms and still keep my job?


I'm really frustrated and worried, particularly about the latter. The middle boss last week indicated I was being very unreasonable. Other colleagues don't realise there's an issue and assume they can send RAs to me. For my part I've been advising them of any obvious changes needed to the documents, but have not signed. I've offered my middle boss my continued support in this but have point blank refused to sign them until the legal situation is clarified. She was less than pleased.

In your shoes, i'd be concerned too.

Its not at all clear what your role is. Are you the employees/ staff side/ H&S representative? Are you the company's H&S manager?

A one week course is very unlikely to give you enough grounding in H&S assessment.

Are you being asked to agree the risk assessment when you may not have any expertise in the area - e.g. VDU use is different to kitchen food storage is different to hazardous waste disposal but can be found in an education environment.

I'm stunned that the legal people do not want to meet you - have you called them yourself? In my limited experience, legal people love meeting people to show off (& charge) for their knowledge.

Jobbingmusician has made a useful stop gap suggestion which should bring things to a head.

firely2327

TELLIT01 wrote: »

Put your concerns in writing and state that until you have clarification of your legal position/liability for H&S role you are not willing to undertake any work in relation to those responsibilities. That will / should force a reaction from them one way or another.

Thanks, have done so by email about a week ago. The boss isn't budging, claiming they've spoken with legal and legal don't want to meet me. Boss not saying what my legal position is either. If I don't sign another colleague will have to and the boss has been laying a guilt trip on me in this regard. I feel sorry for my colleague, he's been doing this (slightly higher level on the ladder) for some time and is equally fed up with the bull. The systems in place are not robust and the whole thing needs a complete overhaul.


Heading to see HR tomorrow to see if they have any pearls of wisdom here.

firely2327

jobbingmusician wrote: »

Compromise? Add to your signature something along the lines of

- This RA is based on the assessor having attended a [one day course on H & S assessment - complete as appropriate]. The signatory does not have professional expertise, and any potential liability is therefore limited to the expertise conferred by this basic level of training.

You have then demonstrated clearly that you are not signing as an expert, IMHO.....

Well the boss doesn't look at them so what she doesn't know wont hurt me

firely2327

nicechap wrote: »

In your shoes, i'd be concerned too.

Its not at all clear what your role is. Are you the employees/ staff side/ H&S representative? Are you the company's H&S manager?

A one week course is very unlikely to give you enough grounding in H&S assessment.

Are you being asked to agree the risk assessment when you may not have any expertise in the area - e.g. VDU use is different to kitchen food storage is different to hazardous waste disposal but can be found in an education environment.

I'm stunned that the legal people do not want to meet you - have you called them yourself? In my limited experience, legal people love meeting people to show off (& charge) for their knowledge.

Jobbingmusician has made a useful stop gap suggestion which should bring things to a head.

I work for a very big organisation (Few 1000 employees I believe). In my department we're divided into three areas. I've been given one. All three of us are overseen by another guy (who I pity, been at this a while and seems depressed by the whole thing). My actual job is teaching and related scholarly activities. I'm not a manager in any way, merely a worker.
In essence I'll have to deal with all the RAs for staff and students in my area, so 100's per year. Some of these I'll understand very well, others just a rough idea. Varied work, from nothing dangers to potentially very (with chemicals/poisons).


Training was 1 day, general course for 'managers'. Didn't cover RAs as they only do a general cover for this and not in our specific area.


I've learned on Friday that the legal dept is very understaffed and lots of people there have been jumping ship. I can see why. Hopefully HR will shed some light on things.

elsien

firely2327 wrote: »

Thanks, have done so by email about a week ago. The boss isn't budging, claiming they've spoken with legal and legal don't want to meet me. Boss not saying what my legal position is either. If I don't sign another colleague will have to and the boss has been laying a guilt trip on me in this regard. I feel sorry for my colleague, he's been doing this (slightly higher level on the ladder) for some time and is equally fed up with the bull. The systems in place are not robust and the whole thing needs a complete overhaul.


Heading to see HR tomorrow to see if they have any pearls of wisdom here.

Your colleague does not have to sign if you don't. They have the option of taking the same stance as you pending further clarification.

ohreally

Is this an appointment under sec 7 of the management regs? http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/3242/regulation/7/made

You mention risk assessments, RA must be suitable and sufficient to be compliant, I suspect that at the moment you are not that person and I'd be wary until you have undertook adequate training and certification (NEBOSH).

Be aware that the employer cannot delegate accountability onto employees.

Perhaps speak with union appointed safety reps and H&S manager before committing.

I'd also question what's in this for you to get involved?

firely2327

ohreally wrote: »

Is this an appointment under sec 7 of the management regs? http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/3242/regulation/7/made

You mention risk assessments, RA must be suitable and sufficient to be compliant, I suspect that at the moment you are not that person and I'd be wary until you have undertook adequate training and certification (NEBOSH).

Be aware that the employer cannot delegate accountability onto employees.

Perhaps speak with union appointed safety reps and H&S manager before committing.

I'd also question what's in this for you to get involved?

Thank you ohreally. It's an interesting read.
A meeting with the H&S manager is apparently in the pipeline and I've been asked to make myself available when the boss manages to set this up. As if I'd miss it! lol


As for what's in it for me, it was made clear to me by the boss when she approached me in April that I needed to take on a dedicated administrative duty (in addition to the lots of admin that we all do daily) if I was to progress to the next level, which I was theoretically due to last month. Still didn't progress last month, neither did my colleagues who were due to be promoted. The organisation is tightening up on promotions now and changing the goalposts annually it appears. Many unhappy bunnies at work.

TELLIT01

[QUOTE=firely2327;74769545_If_I_don't_sign_another_colleague_will_have_to_and_the_boss_has_been_laying_a_guilt_trip_on_me_in_this_regard._I_feel_sorry_for_my_colleague,_he's_been_doing_this_(slightly_higher_level_on_the_ladder)_for_some_time_and_is_equally_fed_up_with_the_bull.[/QUOTE]


Your colleague can also refuse to take on the responsibility. Being blunt, your duty is to safeguard yourself, not to worry about somebody else having the job dumped on them. If the proverbial hits the fan due a H&S issue your colleague won't be doing anything to save your backside if you are doing the job.