Really need advice, long overpayment story

madhouseof4

I am employed as a civil servant for the DWP, started in Feb 2003. I came off probation in Feb 2004 and left on maternity leave end of may 2004. Before I left, I told my line manager of the date I intended to return, definately verbally, possibly in writing (I honestly do not remember), but can't prove it without access to work emails. I was going to take my full 6 months and another 6 weeks unpaid and return on the 4th Jan 2005.

My son was a very difficult baby, cried constantly and hardly slept and had been hospitalised in December 2004 for investigations for failure to thrive and treatment for severe eczema. I was exhausted and depressed so went to see my dr who signed me off sick for 2 weeks initially. I dutifully called and informed work, sent in my sick note. When that note ran out, I got another one for a further 4 weeks, taking me to the 11th Feb. I had an appointment with my dr for the 14th Feb but had to cancel as ds was hospitalised again for a week. By this time, we knew his was very sick and frustrated that we still didn't know what was wrong with him. With all the upheaval and stress, I forgot to go back to the dr's and didn't really give work another thought until he got his diagnosis at the children's hospital on 4th April 2005 (complex congenital heart defects that required urgent open heart surgery). I called work on the 7th and explained what was going on, told them it would be unfair for me to contine on sick leave and that I would transfer back to unpaid maternity leave. I was never told to put this in writing, just told to keep in touch.

When my unpaid maternity leave was about to run out, I called work to tell them we had decided that I was going to stay at home for the time being and put in an application for a career break. I was told to put it in writing, so I did, it was accepted and here I am, still on my career break!

Anyway, By June 2005, the letters started. I had been overpaid. They paid me a salary from 4th Jan to 31st March 2005. I got straight back to them to advice that I had been off sick. They claim that I was still on unpaid maternity leave and therfore couldn't be off sick.

I tried speaking with my line manager, HR and our union rep. After speaking with the union rep, I thought things had been sorted as I didn't hear from work again for over a year. Then in Feb this year, it all started again, only this time the amount was slightly less as they deducted a team bonus from the overpayment (without my permission, but I guess this is a moot point as I hear they can do that in overpayment cases).

In the end, I have taken my case to the CAB and the woman has tried really hard to help me but so far work are not budging. According to the letter they sent to the CAB, which was copied to me, work admit that I was paid through no fault of my own, but that doesn't mean that the overpayment will be waived. They seem to be hinging thier argument on the fact that I must have known I had been paid, either from payslips (got sent months after the fact) or from bank statements which we never open (we use online banking and at the time, I had other things on my mind, like thoughts of my son dying, plus an extension was being built so our computer was packed away in a box and ds was either in and out of hospital with appointments, admissions or we had medical people paying us home visits. I was honestly stressed up to my eyeballs and spent most of my days in floods of tears.)

According to work, I never informed them of my intent to return to work, which if that is the case, how come they started paying me from the date I TOLD them I was coming back? They also said that as I have not returned to work after my maternity leave, "all monies paid during maternity leave period would have to be repaid unless the officer was unable to return to work because of an ill child that required continuos attention at home. However medical evidence had to be submitted within 38 weeks from the child's birth" !!!!!!???!!! Seems I needed to be a clairvoyant or something as DS was not diagnosed until 41 weeks old, even though he was born with the condition. I somehow feel that I am now being discriminated against because I have "disabled" (and I mean that in the loosest possible terms, although he gets DLA) child.

So, if you were me, what would you do? Would you pay up after all this time, even though you don't have that kind of money (just over £1200)? To some it might not be a huge sum of money, but it is to me, and I still don't have it lying around. Or, would you continue to fight? The fight is stressful, but nowhere near as stressful as that time in our lives was, this would be a walk in the park in comparison. The woman from the CAB service seems to think I could have a case, but I would be relying on legal aid and finding one that deals with employment matters is not easy. I have found that I have legal cover for employment issues on my home insurance. I don't want anything from work except to be left alone to get on with my life and put that time in our lives behind us as best as possible. Equally, I can't afford to pay the money back as it has taken us from then until now to start getting back on our feet and I really don't want to end up back where we were then money wise. How we still own our house is beyond me.

Thanks so much for reading this, I know it is long and probably a little rambling, my head is all over the place

madhouseof4

After speaking with some of my friends, it seems that there may also be some other issues, like believeing I was off sick & being informed that infact, I wasn't. Also, once returned to work, sick or not, you can not then go back to maternity leave, which again, my line manager made no mention of (neither here nor there if work say I was still on mat leave anyway, I believed I was off sick). Also, the uselessness of my line manager, who never told me to put anything in writing except for my career break application, which I did. How come she never told me about the 38 week rule for an ill child, even though it was obvious something was wrong with my baby? I could easily have gotten medical evidence sent to them had they have informed me they needed it.

I realise that i will more than likely have to pay the money back and understand that legally, they can ask for it, but I can honestly say I had no idea I had been paid, never mind overpaid, they money would have been spent long ago (we have a one account, everything goes in one big pot), probably on dh having to take time off to look after our older son, or on travel expenses and parking at the hospital etc.

It all seems very confusing, with little bits here and there, but I plan on at least raising a grievance if I can still do that while on a career break? I want to request a copy of my file from HR and wondered if it is possible to request access to my work emails for that time period.

I will also probably take some legal advice on board tomorrow to see if I have a case or not, I can always cut my losses and pay back the absolutel minimum I can afford, and spread it out over the time it has taken to get to this point.

Mollymop5

Hi,
I'm sorry I don't have any practical advice for you but I'm sure someone will be along soon.I hope ds is on the mend.

madhouseof4

Thankyou! DS is plodding along and fairly stable for now. His food allergies probably cause more trouble than symptoms from his heart condition, ironically! Well, unless you count the HUGE heating bills as he does feel the cold, bless him, only so many layers you can put on before he can't move. He still has some defects that need monitoring and possibly further surgery, but it is a wait and see game. nothing like living with a ticking time bomb. Still, we live everyday like it could be his last and love every minute!

Terrylw1

Wow, thats a fair tricky one.

Hope your baby is better, which is all that matters.

If you are a member of a union you are normally able to access free legal protection. My dad paid standard union fees for years and they arranged a barrister for him in a tribunal.

Could your union not do the same or have you left the union now?

Employers always pursue overpayments (if they spot them!) but they are normally willing to make a payment arrangement. They can argue that you knew, which many people would, but you could argue in return that you had far more pressing issues on your mind!

I'm not sure on the maternity being interupted. I know in the case of people at my company, they have advised to stay on maternity but I think it has been interupted before...not sure on that. I can't see why if thats the case, your maternity could be reapplied although it would move the date back???

I think you really need specialist advice on this. Surely the CAB can make you aware of your rights and advice you off what your entitlement should have been under you contract?

CFC

I'm sorry to hear about your problems with your son.

It does appear to me from what you have posted that you have been overpaid. You did not work for the period for which you have been paid. Once your maternity leave has started, you cannot claim sick pay from your employer if you become ill, by the way, so you would not be entitled to this money as sickpay, unless the illness was at the time you should be returning to work. In which case you should have supplied a sick note to cover the whole period of absence, but you did not do this, and in fact you had no certification of absence from Feb 11th onwards until April 5th when you called them to say that you weren't coming back. In fact if you tell them that you were off sick and then simply do not not supply sick notes or return to work after 7 days, you could be liable for disciplinary action.

Your employer is entitled to reclaim the money off you if you have been overpaid. The fact that you didn't check your bank account is irrelevant and honestly will make no difference.

You have the right to request to repay the amount in installments and the employer has a duty to make a reasonable agreement on this. If you can only afford to repay £10 a week then that is what you should offer.

madhouseof4

Thank you CFC. I should have made myself more clear, or waited until this morning to post when less tired!

I was due to return to work on the 4th January and went straight to sick leave (saw the dr on the 29th Dec, the note started from the 4th Jan), does this not count as I never set foot in the office? If this is the case, why did someone not tell me? I would have dragged my sorry backside there, clocked on, clocked off and went straight back home again. Surely it is down to your line manager to keep you properly informed of exact procedures?? If she didn't know at the time if I could do that, she should have looked it up or call HR, it's her job to look after the people she manages right?!

Also, I did have sick notes and did send them in and also have copies here to prove I had them. I agree that it is not their fault I could not get back to the GP to get further sick notes, these things tend to slip your mind when your 7 month old baby is in hospital, undergoing tests and being force fed and slowly deteriorating before your eyes. I was fully prepared to pay back the monies from the 14th Feb to the 31st March (in installments of course, we are still struggling financially after all the crap that happened to us at that time).

Also, how is the fact that I did not check my bank account irrelevant? It is very relevant as I had no idea I had been paid. I didn't even know what day of the week it was and certainly could have cared less about the state of my affairs at that time. IN the laterst letter I have copied to me, they are saying the only reason I have to pay iot back is because I must have known I was paid.


Terrylw1, thanks you very much for your comments, I will definately be looking into specialist advice. Like I said before, if it looks like a lost cause, I will bail, pay up (on my terms, at the lowest rate possible, after al, I am going to have ridiculously high gas bills from now until at least june and I can't afford for anything more than a few £ a wek to be leaving my account. As a matter of fact, the only money we really have left at the end of the month, is just enough to pay the mortagage and ds's DLA) and move on.

dmg24

Hi mh,

Really sorry to hear of this messy situation, and glad to see that the little was is getting better.

I think your GP could be a big help, perhaps he could write a letter explaining your child's condition, and also the effect that it had on you at that time. I doubt it will get the amount owed reduced (though it does appear that you were given incorrect information by your employer), but it should at least quash any rumours as to whether you was ill or not.

Lots of love x

madhouseof4

Thank you dmg. I tried my GP in Feb this year and he was as unsupporting as he could be, stating that there was not enough evidence to say whether or not I would have needed another sick note. He had me signed off as being depressed, when in actual fact I went in saying I couldn't work because I was exhausted, which did not start to resolve until ds was about 19 months old Good thing I love him or I would have thrown him in the bin!

I wish the situation was not as messy and more straight forward. I have been trying HR all morning to ask for a copy of their grievance policy, but it is constantly engaged. I don't even know if that is the number anymore. I suppose my next call should be to the union rep. I am hoping that he can advise of a way to deal with this more informally, and hopefully, symapthetically. I am also waiting for CAB to get back to me. It's all go in my house (always is, lol!)

dmg24

Some doctors are useless ... my old doctor (not my current one, he's great) once refused to give me a sick note for my depression, but offered to write a letter stating that I was depressed?!!

Have HR been advised that you were misinformed at the time of your absence? Do you actually want to return to work at some point in the future?

I am really surprised that they are still chasing this up. As it is from financial year 2004/ 2005, I would have thought they would have written it off by now. They do seem incredibly stubborn!

dmg24

Just realised your employer is the DWP - it is a pity they do not put in so much effort catching and prosecuting benefit cheats! x