Paying back training fees NHS

nicechap

poundz wrote: »

To put it simply there has been nothing in the way of a training programme since starting there - I turned up on my first day with no one expecting me and its been like that ever since. I was supposed to have three mentors, monthly progress meetings and thorough assessments but I've not received anything at all, despite asking for this several times. Whilst I can sympathise with how stretched the department is, I feel unsafe going into an advanced role there knowing that I will be given no support in my first few months post-qualification.

A portfolio is one part of the qualification which should include the monthly assessment forms etc that my manager has said she will backdate. I have passed the theoretical components of the course with some clinical assessments due in the new year.

Welcome to the NHS. Your story is very similar to many new entrants. The TV image and the reality of the NHS can be quite different things.

A few observations:

Are you happy to have your portfolio back dated? If so, i would suggest you google the Mid Staff's whistleblowers report. Falsely recording information should never happen again.

The Trust should have a whistleblower policy, so you should feel quite safe raising any concerns under its umbrella.

When you have qualified, you will be expected to be of the required standard from day 1. If anything goes wrong with patient care you will be thrown under the bus.

Was the training stipulated as part of the recruitment process? Are you absolutely sure you didn't sign anything, the paper trail is usually pretty comprehensively kept by the employer.

Whilst I fully respect Sangie's advice, I'm aware of people who as soon as they say they are leaving find their pay is docked of owed training costs. Any amount still outstanding can be passed to debt collectors, but also included in any reference. If only they'd joined a union.

sangie595

nicechap wrote: »

Whilst I fully respect Sangie's advice, I'm aware of people who as soon as they say they are leaving find their pay is docked of owed training costs. Any amount still outstanding can be passed to debt collectors, but also included in any reference. If only they'd joined a union.

Ah - but that isn't the same thing. Unlawfully docking someone's pay can happen. It is up to the individual as to whether they fight back or not! What I said is that unless there is a signed training agreement in place then the employer cannot lawfully pursue the debt. I said nothing about unlawfully pursuing it! If advice is to be based on what an employer might do, lawful or not, it'd be impossible to give any advice!

The same applies to debt collectors - they will accept instructions from people who pay them. They don't determine whether there actually is a debt in law first. They don't care...

And the issue of a reference falls under the category of "spanners", which I did state can follow one for a long time... There is nothing unlawful about saying that "X didn't repay their training costs", or anything else that is true. How another employer takes that is up to them. And burning bridges can get you stranded - today the OP may want nothing to do with the Trust, but that may not be true in five years time when they have the perfect job for them.

sangie595

poundz wrote: »

The university have asked me to write a formal letter detailing everything that has happened to use as evidence. The course leader did say he would have a battle with the university as they are interested in money, but he felt strongly that the Trust is not in a position to train as I am the sixth student (out of 6) to complain within the last 3 years. Unfortunately I feel I'm not in a position to write such a letter at the moment whilst still employed there, as much as I'd like to prevent others going through this in the future.

Right... I've told you what the legal position is, and provided you are positive that you signed nothing at any time, then you can fight any attempt to claw back this money. But now I'm going to emphasise the other bit - which I did mention, but you need to understand is as important if not more so.... this is the real world, and in the real world the legal position is only part of the story.

I'm sure that you don't mean to mislead - that you are telling the entire truth as you see it. But you aren't! "The university" haven't asked you to write a formal letter, and "the university" neither told you to get out of that Trust as soon as you can, nor did they say that they want to try to stop taking students from them. A lecturer - one single individual - has. "The university" - the institution in its formal existence- is never going to give advice like that to a student. There is a vast difference between "Ms Smith says that XX Trust probably isn't a great employer", and "The university of Bogland says that XX Trust are rubbish". The first one is a private and personal opinion ( which nevertheless could get that lecturer disciplined or dismissed if the Trust find out and complain), and the second is a news headline! The university are simply not in the business of creating news headlines like that - they will not ever endorse those personal opinions of the lecturer.

And, again, sorry but... You have been on a professional course for how long? And you have never dared to formally complain that you aren't getting the support you need or should have, and you still daren't. So, basically, you won't complain until after you have left? Do you want to know what that is called? It's called a spiteful allegation arising out of an employment dispute by an aggrieved ex employee who wants an excuse to escape repaying the costs of training. You say that isn't true? Well you would, wouldn't you? If this was so important there would have been a string of complaints and grievances whilst you were employed, not after the event. That's what they will say. Did you see that reference of yours just getting worse?

Next, ok.... So .... Hmm... You are going to come clean and admit that there have been no formal in work supervision or training etc. Something that is part of the course? So couldn't the Trust turn around and question your professional qualification in the first place? If this is such an important part of the course, then you aren't qualified, are you? What if they challenge, not just your version of the facts, but your qualification? I totally agree with Nicechap - falsifying records, even training records, is wrong and should be reported. But you haven't reported anything so far, and so I'm wondering how you are going to manage doing it now? Because this isn't an anonymous report - they will know you reported it. And whistleblowing... well the law protects whistleblowers... The law also protects people from being unfairly dismissed, so that never happens, does it? You see, actually I think that people should whistleblow. I think that people should fight back. But that's what I think. Not the same thing as what you are going to do!

Now I know that is all bleak. And I'm not saying it to put you off or to get you to pay up. But there are two sides to everything, and I'm not going to lie to you and say there are no consequences in doing "the right thing" - whatever that is! What I am saying is that a bit of a whine about stuff isn't going to prevail. If the Trust say that they want their costs back, it will be a fight. You haven't shown willing to have that fight yet. Maybe that will change. And maybe you will win. But you need to understand that your version of the facts is only one version. And if the Trust wish to get nasty, you may be in for the fight of your life. At least you are in a union. But that won't make any of these possibilities go away. It just means you have support.

Sorry - but you need to be aware of all aspects of this, not just the pleasant ones where you get to not pay the money...

nicechap

sangie595 wrote: »

Ah - but that isn't the same thing. Unlawfully docking someone's pay can happen. It is up to the individual as to whether they fight back or not! What I said is that unless there is a signed training agreement in place then the employer cannot lawfully pursue the debt. I said nothing about unlawfully pursuing it! If advice is to be based on what an employer might do, lawful or not, it'd be impossible to give any advice!

The same applies to debt collectors - they will accept instructions from people who pay them. They don't determine whether there actually is a debt in law first. They don't care...

And the issue of a reference falls under the category of "spanners", which I did state can follow one for a long time... There is nothing unlawful about saying that "X didn't repay their training costs", or anything else that is true. How another employer takes that is up to them. And burning bridges can get you stranded - today the OP may want nothing to do with the Trust, but that may not be true in five years time when they have the perfect job for them.

Thank you, I agree with all you say.

The trust(s) I'm aware of may have done it unlawfully but that didn't stop some Aussies being left penniless before their flight home. And as far as I'm aware, none have got their money back.

The NHS is a very large employer, and people move around it a lot. There are so many trusts understaffed, recruitment is in permanent crisis, so people will get taken on despite some less than glowing references. Here's an example posted on my timeline this week of recruitment challenge at just one hospital.

https://www.jobs.nhs.uk/xi/vacancy/61e5e1b4ab3b253f59da9f146db2f540/?vac_ref=914887993

sangie595

nicechap wrote: »

Thank you, I agree with all you say.

The trust(s) I'm aware of may have done it unlawfully but that didn't stop some Aussies being left penniless before their flight home. And as far as I'm aware, none have got their money back.

The NHS is a very large employer, and people move around it a lot. There are so many trusts understaffed, recruitment is in permanent crisis, so people will get taken on despite some less than glowing references. Here's an example posted on my timeline this week of recruitment challenge at just one hospital.

https://www.jobs.nhs.uk/xi/vacancy/61e5e1b4ab3b253f59da9f146db2f540/?vac_ref=914887993

Yes, I know and I agree entirely. I think that's the point that I am trying to make - what should happen and what actually does are not the same thing and it cuts both ways. Whistleblowers also shouldn't find it impossible to gain employment in the NHS either - but I know that some do! The problem is that it's a game of risks. There is no risk free option other than keeping quiet about the backdated training record and repaying the money. Which I'm not recommending doing! But I'm in the position of not having to live with the choices. So only the OP can decide what risks they are willing to take on this. Assuming they are correct and didn't sign anything, I suspect their union is likely to suggest trying for some kind of compromise to manage put those risks. I don't deal with NHS employers, but some of my colleagues do, and so I have a fair grasp of how they approach things. They'd only recommend a battle if they think the member can sustain it, and if the member is willing to take the risk. NHS employers are powerful. That doesn't mean you can't take them on and beat them. But it does mean that you must be absolutely certain you are up to the battle because there's no going back.

shortcrust

In places I've worked in the NHS this would be viewed as an administrative !!!! up. Once it was realised the paperwork isn't in place the matter would be dropped and procedures tightened up. It's certainly not the sort of thing that would discussed with prospective employers. BUT, it's all about culture and personalities, and the NHS is a many splendoured thing...

I think my line would be, I really want to get this sorted but I only have a vague memory of the details and can't find that I've kept any record. I don't actually remember signing anything. Can I please see your copy of the signed agreement? When they can't supply it, it simply becomes a procedural matter (i.e. something that you can deal with in a businesslike fashion). No signed agreement, no payment.

poundz

Thank you for all your advice. I’m aware that there are many factors at play here and I’ve felt uncertain of what to do for the best. I want to highlight the issues of this Trust but also want to try and protect my own career prospects... there doesn’t seem to be a way of achieving both. Fortunately I know staff at the other Trust very well and they have promised to provide me with a period of support if I come to them on qualifying. Repaying the fees would undoubtedly cause me some trouble but in all honesty I am most worried about contending with the uproar that is likely to ensue. I know I need to make a formal complaint but doing so in this toxic environment feels very difficult indeed as there’s absolutely no protection for staff here at all (I’ve witnessed how others have been treated previously).

I’m not sure how these next few months will pan out but thanks again.

nicechap

https://improvement.nhs.uk/resources/freedom-to-speak-up-whistleblowing-policy-for-the-nhs/

Your current trust will have a whistleblowing champion. Speak to them in the first instance.

An alternative line of argument is, you're not leaving the NHS, only the Trust, so NHS will still benefit from paying the training fees and not lose out. Your new trust might even include paying your current trust the fees as part of a welcome deal.

Manxman_in_exile

poundz wrote: »

Thank you for all your advice. I’m aware that there are many factors at play here and I’ve felt uncertain of what to do for the best. I want to highlight the issues of this Trust but also want to try and protect my own career prospects... there doesn’t seem to be a way of achieving both. Fortunately I know staff at the other Trust very well and they have promised to provide me with a period of support if I come to them on qualifying. Repaying the fees would undoubtedly cause me some trouble but in all honesty I am most worried about contending with the uproar that is likely to ensue. I know I need to make a formal complaint but doing so in this toxic environment feels very difficult indeed as there’s absolutely no protection for staff here at all (I’ve witnessed how others have been treated previously).

I’m not sure how these next few months will pan out but thanks again.

OP - are we talking about post-registration course fees here? When I was involved in NHS training (admittedly 15 years ago so hopelessly out of date!) the only costs trusts would have borne would have been salary costs, the course fees being funded by what were then called NHS training and education consortiums (I worked for one that covered all the NHS trusts across three counties in the east of England).


It made sense to "pool" course fees in this way as it avoided precisely the situation you now appear to be in. So long as trained staff stayed within the NHS "family" it didn't matter that they moved between trusts. (Although I can understand that staff who were trained after being recruited from overseas - and then returned home - might have been pursued).


I was also responsible for monitoring three multi-million £ training contracts with two local HEIs. If they gave us any feedback that trusts might not have been living up to their obligations, we'd have had a "word" with those trusts on the grounds of needing to get value for money from the contract. And I was quite impressed by those HEIs in respect of the obligations they felt towards their students - although I accept sangie's point of view that this may no longer be the case and they're just interested in the income now.


If trusts are now funding training from their own budgets, that's an unfortunate and retrograde step in my view.

poundz

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

OP - are we talking about post-registration course fees here? When I was involved in NHS training (admittedly 15 years ago so hopelessly out of date!) the only costs trusts would have borne would have been salary costs, the course fees being funded by what were then called NHS training and education consortiums (I worked for one that covered all the NHS trusts across three counties in the east of England).


It made sense to "pool" course fees in this way as it avoided precisely the situation you now appear to be in. So long as trained staff stayed within the NHS "family" it didn't matter that they moved between trusts. (Although I can understand that staff who were trained after being recruited from overseas - and then returned home - might have been pursued).


I was also responsible for monitoring three multi-million £ training contracts with two local HEIs. If they gave us any feedback that trusts might not have been living up to their obligations, we'd have had a "word" with those trusts on the grounds of needing to get value for money from the contract. And I was quite impressed by those HEIs in respect of the obligations they felt towards their students - although I accept sangie's point of view that this may no longer be the case and they're just interested in the income now.


If trusts are now funding training from their own budgets, that's an unfortunate and retrograde step in my view.

Yes you're right this is a post-registration course and the funding has actually changed during my studies unfortunately. The first couple of modules were funded by the region's training budget but this changed at the start of the new financial year so that individual trusts have to pay out now which caused some issues as they hadn't predicted this change. So perhaps this is another factor I need to consider ie most of my course has been funded directly by the trust which historically wasn't the case. It does seem backwards because as you say I will still be working within the NHS and intend to be for the foreseeable future.