Small business employment law

skyela

Hello

I was looking for some advice please...

I started a job in June working for a small business. I have never been offered a contract and have not been given a "statement of certain specified terms" either.

I have also been required to work on public holidays such as boxing day with no extra pay.

The financial year for this company runs January and the holiday pay for this period runs pro rata January to December.

I have just attempted to book holiday for a pre paid for holiday starting on the 17th February, which has been refused due to me not having accrued enough pro rata holiday time by then.

Along with some other rude comments from my manager today this has all made me feel rather sad.

I took on the job with the belief that it would be a certain amount of hours a week, only to be regularly sent home early unpaid when they are quiet and they also have closed for a week here and there with no pay or care for the people it employs.

I guess what I am asking, is where do I stand legally with no contract or ANY form of signed documentation to prove a contract of employment or induction or formal training .... I feel a bit as if I am being pushed out and would like to know where I stand.

I would appreciate any help ..

Thanks

lincroft1710

If you work and are paid for that work, you have a contract, albeit not a written one.

sangie595

skyela wrote: »

Hello

I was looking for some advice please...

I started a job in June working for a small business. I have never been offered a contract and have not been given a "statement of certain specified terms" either.

I have also been required to work on public holidays such as boxing day with no extra pay.

The financial year for this company runs January and the holiday pay for this period runs pro rata January to December.

I have just attempted to book holiday for a pre paid for holiday starting on the 17th February, which has been refused due to me not having accrued enough pro rata holiday time by then.

Along with some other rude comments from my manager today this has all made me feel rather sad.

I took on the job with the belief that it would be a certain amount of hours a week, only to be regularly sent home early unpaid when they are quiet and they also have closed for a week here and there with no pay or care for the people it employs.

I guess what I am asking, is where do I stand legally with no contract or ANY form of signed documentation to prove a contract of employment or induction or formal training .... I feel a bit as if I am being pushed out and would like to know where I stand.

I would appreciate any help ..

Thanks

Well... An employer is entitled to refuse to allow you to take holiday when you want it, so you don't book a holiday until you area sue that you have permission to take the leave. Public holidays have no significance - in law they are normal working days and there is no right to any extra pay for working them. You should have been given a statement of terms, but this isn't something you can doo anything about because it can only be enforced in an employment tribunal alongside another claim - and you don't have one from what you say here.

Believing what your working hours are doesn't make that a fact - it sounds rather like it's am on demand type of contract. But it's all kind of pointless because without two years service there isn't much of anything you can do about being dismissed.

So the best advice is to get another job. Sorry.

agrinnall

sangie595 wrote: »

So the best advice is to get another job. Sorry.

And if you do, make sure you get permission from your new employer to take holiday before booking it. To be honest, this is so basic that I'm not sure why you wouldn't have done it anyway.

jobbingmusician

How much holiday have you taken since you started this job in June? Your holiday entitlement is (at least) 5.6 weeks a year (assuming you work the same hours every week, a week's leave is the same number of hours long as your working week). This 5.6 weeks includes BH. If you haven't taken much in the way of holiday since you started, I suggest you ask your employer what the holiday policy actually is, and ask if it is possible to carry any untaken leave over into the new leave year.

If you haven't taken any leave (apart from Christmas Day itself, which you haven't mentioned having to work - and what about the August BH?) then some of the time when you were sent home should have been paid as holiday pay. Do you get a proper payslip? Have you kept these payslips?

sangie595

jobbingmusician wrote: »

How much holiday have you taken since you started this job in June? Your holiday entitlement is (at least) 5.6 weeks a year (assuming you work the same hours every week, a week's leave is the same number of hours long as your working week). This 5.6 weeks includes BH. If you haven't taken much in the way of holiday since you started, I suggest you ask your employer what the holiday policy actually is, and ask if it is possible to carry any untaken leave over into the new leave year.

If you haven't taken any leave (apart from Christmas Day itself, which you haven't mentioned having to work - and what about the August BH?) then some of the time when you were sent home should have been paid as holiday pay. Do you get a proper payslip? Have you kept these payslips?

Much as I hate to say this, how do you work that out? The employer is not obliged to carry over any leave that isn't taken. And asking for it at this stage is unreasonable. And there is no right in law to be paid holiday when sent home.

There simply isn't enough information to determine the contractual details here. The only thing that I can be certain of is that it isn't zero hours - because by law that must be in writing. Assuming, of course, that the OP hasn't left out any relevant information.

But holidays are use them or lose them. Any unused leave at the end of the month - three days! - is lost. And we don't actually know that there is any. That is irrelevant to the fact that nobody has a right to decide when they will take holiday - they need the employers agreement first.

I don't like the sound of this employer, so I'm not taking their side. But based on what had been said so far, the law will.

[Deleted User]

Once my 'temporary employer' took away my visitor pass - I told them where to stick there job. Today must have been the day for quitting.

No training except the push to end up better and do something more was how I looked at it, even after I'd worked for the same company twice. Always remember the first person in a depot on first day saying be careful they can be strange here. How true this was.

Onwards and upwards OP. Make your experience count for that is all that matters.

jobbingmusician

My reasoning is as follows. I accept that I may be wrong, and that there may be law of which I am not aware, but I think this is worth arguing.

Firstly, nothing is lost by asking to carry leave over. The employer may say yes, in which case it is possible that the OP might even have enough leave to take his Feb holiday.

I actually wasn't aware that a zero hours contract must be in writing. That is interesting, as the OP must therefore have a guaranteed number of hours each week (of course, we don't know how many hours this is. If the OP has - in the mind of the employer - a contract to work 10 hours a week, has been working semi-regular overtime but is occasionally sent home when he has worked those 10 hours, then there is little case for paying 'sent home' time as holiday.

(Obviously the absence of a written document setting out terms and conditions of employment is one of the key issues to be addressed here. The sensible thing would seem for the OP and his fellow employees to approach a union..........)

However....

the OP has stated that not only has he been sent home 'early' but also that the whole business has been closed for the occasional week. If the business is closed, it should of course be paying employees their contractual hours. The normal procedure, if a business closes down for a week or so, is to force employees to take that week as part of their AL. The employee is sometimes sent home 'early', but we don't know (and neither does he, it seems) whether he has actually fulfilled his 'contracted' hours for the week. In cases where the business is closed for a week, none of the employees are being paid for their contracted hours. So my argument is that they have used their holiday, and should be paid for their full holiday entitlement for the year (or part year).

Not that this is the only issue which needs sorting out in this company, by the sound of things.....

sangie595

jobbingmusician wrote: »

My reasoning is as follows. I accept that I may be wrong, and that there may be law of which I am not aware, but I think this is worth arguing.

Firstly, nothing is lost by asking to carry leave over. The employer may say yes, in which case it is possible that the OP might even have enough leave to take his Feb holiday.

I actually wasn't aware that a zero hours contract must be in writing. That is interesting, as the OP must therefore have a guaranteed number of hours each week (of course, we don't know how many hours this is. If the OP has - in the mind of the employer - a contract to work 10 hours a week, has been working semi-regular overtime but is occasionally sent home when he has worked those 10 hours, then there is little case for paying 'sent home' time as holiday.

(Obviously the absence of a written document setting out terms and conditions of employment is one of the key issues to be addressed here. The sensible thing would seem for the OP and his fellow employees to approach a union..........)

However....

the OP has stated that not only has he been sent home 'early' but also that the whole business has been closed for the occasional week. If the business is closed, it should of course be paying employees their contractual hours. The normal procedure, if a business closes down for a week or so, is to force employees to take that week as part of their AL. The employee is sometimes sent home 'early', but we don't know (and neither does he, it seems) whether he has actually fulfilled his 'contracted' hours for the week. In cases where the business is closed for a week, none of the employees are being paid for their contracted hours. So my argument is that they have used their holiday, and should be paid for their full holiday entitlement for the year (or part year).

Not that this is the only issue which needs sorting out in this company, by the sound of things.....

Yes I agree that there is a load of s*** here to sort out. Some of which certainly appears to be unlawful (although I ignored it due to it not being relevant to the original question). And the OP can look forward to a nice long break without pay (and possibly without a reference or benefits) the minute they raise them. Which I agree isn't "fair" - but they have no right to claim unfair dismissal and a hell of a job to prove anything to the DWP. And they have no union to raise it with and no union will take them on now - no prospect of anything but dismissal in the pipeline, no claim for a tribunal and unions don't accept dealing with pre-existing problems.

It's not that I disagree with some of your logic, albeit that I think that the employer thinks it's a zero hours contract (and tribunals can, in any case, be quite lenient towards smaller employers)... But the bottom line here is that the OP wants to take a holiday in February and has been refused permission. That's the issue - and the employer can refuse to agree the leave. The OP has paid for the holiday. The employer says no. They can choose to go on holiday and will be dismissed. Or not go and lose the money because no insurance will cover it - they should have asked the employer first.

I don't have to like it. I don't. But the employer, on this, is in the right. And in the rest of it - it won't end happily for the OP because they will struggle to find any legal recourse. It's an uphill battle, no evidence, no documents and no union. And, of course, we have yet to determine (because we haven't asked the questions yet) that they are even an employee - workers get holiday too. It's moot really. It's a rubbish employer; and out under their own steam or out under the employers seems to be the two options. Sooner or later. None of which helps with the holiday booked in February problem....

skyela

Thank you for all of your replies, it's very helpful.

I am supposed to work 32 hours a week(the opening times of the business) but often an hour or two before my shift is due to end, they say to go home early ... This happens usually at least twice a week.

The holiday was a Christmas present, I didnt book it myself and I appreciate what you've all said about it. I was wondering more about her reasoning for not having earned the holiday as it would be 2.5 months into the financial year. My thoughts was that it was based over a year , not that you would have to wait 5 months to be able to book a two week holiday for example..

They closed for nearly 2 weeks two months ago and are due to close again in January for another 2 weeks, both unpaid.

The lack of contract has always been a worry , I was always assured by other people working there that no one has one, I should have pressed more for one at the time I guess.

Thank you

sangie595

skyela wrote: »

Thank you for all of your replies, it's very helpful.

I am supposed to work 32 hours a week(the opening times of the business) but often an hour or two before my shift is due to end, they say to go home early ... This happens usually at least twice a week.

The holiday was a Christmas present, I didnt book it myself and I appreciate what you've all said about it. I was wondering more about her reasoning for not having earned the holiday as it would be 2.5 months into the financial year. My thoughts was that it was based over a year , not that you would have to wait 5 months to be able to book a two week holiday for example..

They closed for nearly 2 weeks two months ago and are due to close again in January for another 2 weeks, both unpaid.

The lack of contract has always been a worry , I was always assured by other people working there that no one has one, I should have pressed more for one at the time I guess.

Thank you

Unfortunately, the employer is correct about that too - although I'd lay bets that they don't know that or why! Generally, employees do not have to accrue leave before being able to take it, except in the first year of employment . You are in the first year, so that is correct. That said, the reason given would be moot- the employer can say no and doesn't need to give any reason at all. So even if you had accrued the leave, or were in the second year of your employment, it wouldn't matter because the reason they said no is irrelevant to the fact that they can.

In broad terms, the employer is doing things wrong. Just not this! They should have written terms. They should have terms for lay offs. They shouldn't deduct pay for sending you home early. But what they shouldn't do doesn't help you at all with your leave, and probably not with anything else either. A business that only operates 32 hours a week, has regular quiet times, and regular closures - I'm guessing at some sort of cafe, sandwich shop or similar service industry? I can think of a couple of other service industry type things such as hairdressers or beauty shops that might have similar patterns. But a business that operates on such a restricted basis isn't raking in money. Which is no excuse for anything. But it does suggest that legal recourse may be limited anyway. So much as I hate to say it, I think the opportunities for any improvement are few and another job is probably the least stressful way to go.