CEL Particulars received

ruffneck247

Received the particulars today. They look just like a generic letter with a schedule attached. They were also late arriving, dated 11th October but only posted 01 November. The claim is dated 10 October, so they should have been here by 29th at the latest.

The signs in the car park are not visible at night as they are not lit up and also are a long way above head height and way above a drivers view when entering the car park. Is this defence enough or do I need to add in other factors?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Umkomaas

Did you miss this in your forum search? It’s pretty fundamental to any current CEL case.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5735738

ruffneck247

Umkomaas wrote: »

Did you miss this in your forum search? It’s pretty fundamental to any current CEL case.

It is so confusing if you are a newbie on this forum.

There are so many threads, links to posts and threads and legal jargon that I just don't understand.

The technical experts seem to get miffed when you can't understand.

Is it any wonder newbies like me can't fathom it !!

All we want, is help to stop these fascist parking companies getting the better of us.

Redx

its a legal matter , most people on here (maybe 98% of them , including a lot of regulars here , including me) are not legally trained either

so what do you expect on a non-legal forum ?

this forum is about parking tickets and parking issues , not court cases

it is NOT a legal aid forum, although you wouldnt believe it by the sheer number of current court case threads on here

our advice is that people like yourself read the up to date comments by the very , very few legally trained minds on here

and those who know a lot more than us

so post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread

anything written by the following too

coupon-mad
loadsofchildren123
johnnersh
bargepole
Iamemanresu

possibly a few others so apologies to anyone I have missed out

lastly, when you have read maybe a dozen recent CEL court case threads on here you will get a good idea of what is going on , same as us regulars who are here daily

you do the work and people will advise and reply, do nothing and they wont

reply in this thread with your comments and your draft defence etc

the new system has only been going for 5 weeks so you cannot expect anyone to be 100% with it

and we dont expect newbies to understand it or be up to date at all, because we are all in that exact same leaky boat

we expect you to READ what you are pointed at until your brain hurts , and maybe , just maybe , after a few days or a week it will start to come clear what you need to do

the recent posts by LOC123 and Johnnersh are free legal advice, better than anything you could pay for , so dont look a gift horse in the mouth

you have been picked to play in a legal game that you know nothing about , so you better gen up and stick with it until the final whistle blows because you dont have any other option (other than pay hundreds of pounds to sc@mmers)

ps:- you have not had any "technical experts" reply as yet, just regulars who read a lot pointing you at stuff

AndySab

I sympathise entirely ruffneck247, I was in the same boat as you a week ago. Look at it from the other side though. The experts on here (and they are) are overrun with people like us who are panicking. Make a brew, start with the newbies thread, follow a few links, read the thread linked to above and then start with some copy and pasting into a document - signage details from others defences, land owner contracts etc. it's all relevant to you. Get it in some order, post it in this thread and you'll have some suggestions for changes/additions etc.

It's nowhere near as complicated as it first appears, it's just massively unfamiliar.

ruffneck247

I have for the most part, copied and pasted to create my defence, I'd appreciate comments as to it's appropriateness:

In the County Court Business Centre
Between:
Civil Enforcement Limited
V
******


Claim Number: ******




I, ******, deny I am liable to the Claimant for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:

• The Claim Form issued on ***** by Civil Enforcement Limited was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by “Civil Enforcement Limited”.
• This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol (as outlined in the new Pre Action Protocol for Debt Claims, 1 October 2017). As an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.



a. There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction.
b. This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.
c. The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.
d. The Claim Form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action nor sufficient detail. The Defendant has no idea what the claim is about - why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information.
The Claim Form Particulars did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs. These documents, and the ‘Letter before County Court Claim’ should have been produced, pursuant to paragraph 6 of the Practice Direction – Pre Action Conduct. This constitutes a deliberate attempt to thwart any efforts to defend the claim or to “take stock”, pursuant to paragraph 12 of the Practice Direction. Again, this totally contradicts the guidance outlined in the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (2017), the aims of which are:

i. ‘early engagement and communication between the parties, including early exchange of sufficient information about the matter to help clarify whether there are any issues in dispute
ii. enable the parties to resolve the matter without the need to start court proceedings, including agreeing a reasonable repayment plan or considering using an Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) procedure
iii. encourage the parties to act in a reasonable and proportionate manner in all dealings with one another (for example, avoiding running up costs which do not bear a reasonable relationship to the sums in issue) and
iv. support the efficient management of proceedings that cannot be avoided.’
e. The Defence therefore asks the Court to strike out the claim as disclosing no cause of action and having no reasonable prospect of success as currently drafted.
f. Alternatively, the Defendant asks that the Claimant is required to file Particulars which comply with Practice Directions and include at least the following information;

i. Whether the matter is being brought for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge, and an explanation as to the exact nature of the charge
ii. A copy of any contract it is alleged was in place (e.g. copies of signage)
iii. How any contract was concluded (if by performance, then copies of signage maps in place at the time)
iv. Whether keeper liability is being claimed, and if so copies of any Notice to Driver / Notice to Keeper
v. Whether the Claimant is acting as Agent or Principal, together with a list of documents they will rely on in this matter
vi. If charges over and above the initial charge are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed
vii. If Interest charges are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed.
g. Once these Particulars have been filed, the Defendant asks for reasonable time to file another defence.
• The Claimant failed to meet the Notice to Keeper obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold me liable under the strict ‘keeper liability’ provisions.

Schedule 4 also states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not, and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when it is believed that neither the signs, nor any Notice To Keeper mentioned a possible additional sum for outstanding debt and damages.

• The Claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that £50 'legal representative’s (or even admin) costs’ were incurred.

• This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. As far as I can ascertain, based upon the very vague particulars of claim and complete lack of evidence and photographs, and without having been furnished with the alleged signage 'contract', none of this applies in this material case.

• In the absence of any proof of adequate signage that contractually bound the Defendant then there can have been no contract and the Claimant has no case.

a. The Claimant is put to strict proof that at the time of the alleged event they had both advertisement consent and the permission from the site owner to display the signs.
b. In the absence of strict proof I submit that the Claimant was committing an offence by displaying their signs and therefore no contract could have been entered into between the driver and the Claimant.
c. Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

i. Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.
ii. It is believed the signage was not lit and any terms were not visible or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 in requiring a huge inflated sum as 'compensation' from by an authorised party using the premises as intended.
iii. No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.
iv. The signs are believed to have no mention of any debt collection additional charge, which cannot form part of any alleged contract.
d. BPA CoP breaches - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

i. the signs were not compliant in terms of the font size, lighting or positioning.
ii. the sum pursued exceeds £100.
iii. there is / was no compliant landowner contract.

• No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.

• The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.

• The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.

• Due to the length of time, the Defendant has little to no recollection of the day in question. It would not be reasonable to expect a registered keeper to be able to recall the potential driver(s) of the car over 9 months later. In any case, there is no such obligation in law and this was confirmed in the POPLA Annual Report 2015 by parking expert barrister and Lead Adjudicator, Henry Greenslade, who also clarified the fact that registered keeper can only be held liable under the POFA Schedule 4 and not by presumption or any other legal argument.


The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:

• Failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on 10th October 2017.

• Sent a template, well-known to be “generic cut and paste” 'Particulars' of claim relying on irrelevant case law (Beavis) which ignores the fact that this Claimant cannot hold registered keepers liable in law, due to their own choice of non-POFA documentation.


The vague Particulars of Claim, which were late by 3 days, arriving 02/11/2017 having a postmark of 01/11/17, disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.
I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.

Signed **** Date ****

ruffneck247

Any chance someone could take a look at this, cheers.

Lamilad

Looks ok after a quick skim read. This seems to be the CEL defence that ticks all the boxes and is being used by most defendants.

I'm not a fan of this para:

Due to the length of time, the Defendant has little to no recollection of the day in question. It would not be reasonable to expect a registered keeper to be able to recall the potential driver(s) of the car over 9 months later. In any case, there is no such obligation in law and this was confirmed in the POPLA Annual Report 2015 by parking expert barrister and Lead Adjudicator, Henry Greenslade, who also clarified the fact that registered keeper can only be held liable under the POFA Schedule 4 and not by presumption or any other legal argument.

Does this reflect the basis on which you are defending? i.e that you cannot remember who was driving and are holding them to strict proof or is yours the stronger stance where you can expressly deny being the driver?

ruffneck247

Lamilad wrote: »

Looks ok after a quick skim read. This seems to be the CEL defence that ticks all the boxes and is being used by most defendants.

I'm not a fan of this para:


Does this reflect the basis on which you are defending? i.e that you cannot remember who was driving and are holding them to strict proof or is yours the stronger stance where you can expressly deny being the driver?

Would you think that I should just remove the paragraph, or do you have a better way of wording it?

Lamilad

depends on you answer to the question I asked

Redx

thats what I just thought as I was reading those 2 posts

the wording is dependent on the angle of the defence by the defendant

if the defendant is definitely NOT the driver, then a more robust form of wording is used, like lamilad did in his court defences and appearances