Help please on employment law for apprenticships?

wannaberich41

Apologies if I've posted this in the wrong place.
I am after some advise for my son please who started his apprenticeship in September 2016 at the age of 16. He has just turned 17. If anyone can advise on employment law please?
I thought the legal hours for person of this is age is 40? The reason I say this is because they pay my son for 40 hours a week. But he is working more hours than this a week. Last week he worked 86 hours but got paid 40. The hours he works over the 40 (46) will get added up as a total all and every now and then the over worked hours will be paid in his wages as a bonus. Is this legal ?
Can he legally work over 40 hours a week. as osvertime or does it have to be strict 40 hours only.
He gets 15 min tea break at 9am. Half hour lunch at 12 noon.
He works on a farm.
Thank you in advance.

paddyandstumpy

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/young-people/young-people-and-employment/

sangie595

wannaberich41 wrote: »

Apologies if I've posted this in the wrong place.
I am after some advise for my son please who started his apprenticeship in September 2016 at the age of 16. He has just turned 17. If anyone can advise on employment law please?
I thought the legal hours for person of this is age is 40? The reason I say this is because they pay my son for 40 hours a week. But he is working more hours than this a week. Last week he worked 86 hours but got paid 40. The hours he works over the 40 (46) will get added up as a total all and every now and then the over worked hours will be paid in his wages as a bonus. Is this legal ?
Can he legally work over 40 hours a week. as osvertime or does it have to be strict 40 hours only.
He gets 15 min tea break at 9am. Half hour lunch at 12 noon.
He works on a farm.
Thank you in advance.

As far as I am aware, the 40 hour limit is an absolute. But please be conscious of the fact that there are some differences in law for agricultural workers, and I cannot be certain that this is correct.

That said - who is complaining here, him or you? I assume this is a legitimate apprenticeship? And do you have any reason to believe that the employer will not honour the agreement to pay the hours as a bonus?

Because the thing is, agriculture is very hard work and there are long hours, especially at this time of year. That doesn't excuse the law being broken (if it is being), but if this is what your son wants to do, if he sees a future for himself in some form of agriculture or horticulture, and if he has agreed that he's willing to put in these hours , then if the employer really is willing to recompense him, I think you need too think very carefully before interfering. Because sometimes, what is "right" is not always clear cut. Of course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be concerned. But I'd suggest that firstly you need to ascertain that he wants you to intervene. And if he does, maybe the first step is for him, with you perhaps if he feels unsure of himself, to talk to the farmer. If he's becoming exhausted, and I could quite see that he may be with hours like that, is there a middle ground? More breaks and longer ones? An agreed "overtime" period that both of you can work with? Paid time off (instead of overtime pay) when the weather is bad (assuming that gets in the way of farm work)? Compensatory extra holiday?

Obviously, if he can't cope with the hours, then he (or you) does need to put a stop to this. Perhaps a conversation with his mentor for the apprenticeship? Or just a conversation with the employer, who may not be aware he's struggling (and small employers, as farms usually are, often haven't a clue about the law either). I wouldn't start from a point of assuming the employer is doing something bad deliberately - he wouldn't be promising the pay as a bonus if he was.

But do bear in mind that the extra money might be a big incentive for your son, and he may want it! If that is the case, then he's nearly an adult - and given he is now working, he's an adult in all but name, and whilst you can support him if he wants to change things, he must make his own decisions about what matters to him.

It would also be a good idea, if he sees a future in this line of work, to get him unionised. Agricultural work is hard, some employers are less than good, and the employment rights of agricultural workers are unique in some respects. Most agricultural workers are now in Unite, and there are special rates for apprentices.

agrinnall

One problem with being paid the extra hours as a bonus is that he may end up paying more NI than he would if the hours were paid in the week they were earned, and that can't be reclaimed, unlike any additional tax that might be paid (probably unlikely on apprentice wage at his age).

fraserbooks

I used to work in care and the needs of the service meant we often worked more than 48 hours a week However unless staff signed an opt out clause (and I would urge people to think carefully before doing so) the employer must show a duty of care more so for younger employees and if your son had an accident the fact that he was tired would be taken into consideration.

As far as I know apprentices are allowed to take on extra part time work and as long as your son is being paid minimum wage for the extra hours it is legal.

sangie595

agrinnall wrote: »

One problem with being paid the extra hours as a bonus is that he may end up paying more NI than he would if the hours were paid in the week they were earned, and that can't be reclaimed, unlike any additional tax that might be paid (probably unlikely on apprentice wage at his age).

True. That might be something to discuss - assuming he wants the money instead of the time. It really depends on what the lad wants to do about it. I know when I was 17 - an awful long time ago now - I'd have worked my butt off and took the money!

Edit.- But in those days I was young, stupid and had loads of energy. These days, not so much!

sangie595

fraserbooks wrote: »

I used to work in care and the needs of the service meant we often worked more than 48 hours a week However unless staff signed an opt out clause (and I would urge people to think carefully before doing so) the employer must show a duty of care more so for younger employees and if your son had an accident the fact that he was tired would be taken into consideration.

As far as I know apprentices are allowed to take on extra part time work and as long as your son is being paid minimum wage for the extra hours it is legal.

That's not correct - at least not for young workers. There is no opt out for young workers. As I said, agriculture may be slightly different, but that is because it had some laws unique to it. But young workers generally cannot opt out of the working time limits. These limits are not the working time regulations (which is where the opt out comes from) but entirely separate laws to protect young people. And it isn't extra part time work - it's the main job.

fraserbooks

Industries like healthcare and agriculture are not covered by the offices shops and railway premises laws nor the factory acts. Hours are usually averaged out over a seventeen week period to allow for harvests or flu epidemics. I think you are probably right about the 40 hour a week limit at 17 Sangie but I am not sure if it is each week or an average.

sangie595

fraserbooks wrote: »

Industries like healthcare and agriculture are not covered by the offices shops and railway premises laws nor the factory acts. Hours are usually averaged out over a seventeen week period to allow for harvests or flu epidemics. I think you are probably right about the 40 hour a week limit at 17 Sangie but I am not sure if it is each week or an average.

I think you need to massively update your employment law. Both Acts that you are quoting here are largely superseded- although they have not been repealed the relevant legislation has been substantially replaced over the last 15 years or so. Until 1998 there were no restrictions on working hours except for those imposed on children. The Working Time Directive now controls the vast majority of working hours legislation, and introduced the opt out. Health-care is very definitely covered by the legislation - even junior doctors since 2004. If they had not applied to you, you would not have been presented with the opt out.

Having had time to check, the regulations do apply to agricultural workers, but allow for slightly more flexibility for seasonal variations. And the country worked in its also important. Scotland still had an agricultural wages board, and they set many conditions of service. There is also a board in Wales.

wannaberich41

Sangie,
It's me that's asking about the hours which a 17 year old apprentice should be doing. I thought, but wasn't sure that the maximum a 17 year old could work was 40 hours hence why they are paying him only 40 hours a week regardless if he's doing 70,80 or more a week because of harvest.

paddedjohn

If he's only doing these extra hours during harvest and he is managing them without hurting himself then let him (as the saying goes) make hay while the sun shines, it will soon be shorter days and his employer may look favourable on him during the winter months due to his willingness to plod on when the hard work is there. Sounds like he's a good hard working lad.