Free Advice around Court Fines?

Hiddenidenity

As the title says really, is there somewhere I can seek advice regarding a court fine?

Would CAB help? They have no appointments available but do have a drop in. However if it's not something they can help with I don't want to sit and wait hours then waste their time.

StopIt

The CAB can indeed help, but for clarity, is it a fine or a judgement on a money claim backed by a CCJ.


A CCJ isn't a fine in the legal sense, and the only enforcement behind it is financial. A fine from the magistrates court is backed by the crown, and thus can lead to your arrest etc.


Either way, the CAB can advise you on matters like this.

Hiddenidenity

StopIt wrote: »

The CAB can indeed help, but for clarity, is it a fine or a judgement on a money claim backed by a CCJ.


A CCJ isn't a fine in the legal sense, and the only enforcement behind it is financial. A fine from the magistrates court is backed by the crown, and thus can lead to your arrest etc.


Either way, the CAB can advise you on matters like this.

Thank you.

It's a fine for a criminal offence. Not my own though.

It's complicated and I don't know how to shorten it without leaving things out.

Person A&B in a relationship. A is fined at court. A moves out.

A&B have a court order for suspended warrant of eviction for rent arrears (court order up to date and being paid by person B, housing happy to keep just tenant B but won't remove A from tenancy until arrears are zero - a long way off)

A isn't paying his fine. Bailiffs arrive B tells them A no longer lives there and they go away with where he now stays.

4 weeks later enforcement team arrive at B's house. A still hasn't made payment. Enforcement seem adamant they can take goods from the property as A is on the tenancy agreement and isn't on a tenancy elsewhere. Only thing to keep goods safe is have original receipts proving goods belong to B now A (impossible)

Hope this makes sense sorry it's long and probably doesn't make much sense

StopIt

Are you sure this isn't A High Court escalated case? That isn't a criminal matter either. It's an escalation from the county court.

If A isn't paying a criminal fine, they shouldn't be taking goods but arresting person A, frankly. If the landlord/housing people can show the person has left, but has been kept on the tenancy for admin purposes, the enforcement agents should move on.


For avoidance of all doubt, what court are the enforcement agents from?

Hiddenidenity

It's definitely a criminal offence (in the local newspapers etc)

Manchester and Salford magistrates court the fine is owed too.

B's had further steps notices at both addresses and ignored them

StopIt

Hiddenidenity wrote: »

It's definitely a criminal offence (in the local newspapers etc)

Manchester and Salford magistrates court the fine is owed too.

B's had further steps notices at both addresses and ignored them

In which case, non payment is a criminal offence.


Tell the enforcement agents to stop wasting their time with B, refer the matter to get a warrant and arrest person A.




B really shouldn't have ignored the notices though and simply told them to look elsewhere. A known address of A would be of great help also.

Hiddenidenity

StopIt wrote: »

In which case, non payment is a criminal offence.


Tell the enforcement agents to stop wasting their time with B, refer the matter to get a warrant and arrest person A.




B really shouldn't have ignored the notices though and simply told them to look elsewhere. A known address of A would be of great help also.

They have the new address and have had since the 3rd July. With weekly emails back and forth to ask if it could be taken away from B address. They wouldn't discuss personal details with B about the fine other than a yes no answer and up until today it was "being looked at" now they've concluded their looking at it and said it needs to be brought up to date or proceedings will continue. The further steps notice does issue warning of warrant of arrest, also attachment of earnings but it seems the bailiffs want to take control of goods another warning on the further steps notice.

National_Debtline

Hi Hiddenidenity

The first thing I would advise (if it has not been done already) is person B confirms in writing, to both the bailiff company and the court that issued the fine, that person A does not live at the address, plus provide the forwarding address. Explain the issue with the tenancy agreement, and if the council tax bill is showing a single person discount (for being the only adult in the property) send a copy of that as well.

A magistrates’ court bailiff can only force entry as a last resort and they must be able to justify their actions. It’s not at all common for a magistrates’ court bailiff to force entry, even when the liable person is at the address. By putting all this information in writing it would be very hard for the bailiff to justify forcing entry. It’s best that person B keeps their doors locked as a precaution. If they don’t have receipts for all their belongings, get a statutory declaration from a local court or solicitor. It’s a sworn statement they can use to say person A has no belongings in the property, there may be a small fee usually £11.

If the bailiff can’t collect the fine they will pass the debt back to the court. They will then consider next steps and if all other options have been exhausted they could consider issuing an arrest warrant. It’s in person A’s best interests to start negotiating on the debt now to avoid more severe action further down the line. You’ll find helpful information on court fines here https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/factsheets/Pages/magistratescourtfines/magistratescourtdebt.aspx. Person A or B can also get more help from the free debt advice agencies. Hope this helps.

Susie
@natdebtline

Hiddenidenity

National_Debtline wrote: »

Hi Hiddenidenity

The first thing I would advise (if it has not been done already) is person B confirms in writing, to both the bailiff company and the court that issued the fine, that person A does not live at the address, plus provide the forwarding address. Explain the issue with the tenancy agreement, and if the council tax bill is showing a single person discount (for being the only adult in the property) send a copy of that as well.

A magistrates’ court bailiff can only force entry as a last resort and they must be able to justify their actions. It’s not at all common for a magistrates’ court bailiff to force entry, even when the liable person is at the address. By putting all this information in writing it would be very hard for the bailiff to justify forcing entry. It’s best that person B keeps their doors locked as a precaution. If they don’t have receipts for all their belongings, get a statutory declaration from a local court or solicitor. It’s a sworn statement they can use to say person A has no belongings in the property, there may be a small fee usually £11.

If the bailiff can’t collect the fine they will pass the debt back to the court. They will then consider next steps and if all other options have been exhausted they could consider issuing an arrest warrant. It’s in person A’s best interests to start negotiating on the debt now to avoid more severe action further down the line. You’ll find helpful information on court fines here https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/factsheets/Pages/magistratescourtfines/magistratescourtdebt.aspx. Person A or B can also get more help from the free debt advice agencies. Hope this helps.

Susie
@natdebtline

Thank you thats really helpful.

I have been emailing all proof including bank statements, the housing letter stating they accept he isn't a tenant any longer however he will remain on the tenancy until a new one can be done when the arrears are zero. Council tax, along with single claim for tax credits etc. I've sent as much as I can think of to prove he isn't here other than offering them to move in

I didn't let the bailiff in this time but he was rather pushy that they could bring a locksmith etc so it's good to know that while its possible it isn't likely.

I will try and sort statutory declaration. I've agreed to make the payments to court while I seek advice on where I stand so I feel a bit more comfortable knowing the bailiffs won't be 'kicking the door in' but I also don't want to have to cover the whole fine either it will take over a year and it's money I don't have tbh.

Thanks again

National_Debtline

Hi again Hiddenidenity

It sounds like you’ve done everything you reasonably can to prove that he doesn’t live in the property. You cannot be held liable for someone else’s fine but I would be cautious about paying it. If the bailiffs think you’re prepared to do that it could make them more persistent, rather than making them look elsewhere. Plus if you can’t afford it you may get into financial difficulties on the things that you are actually liable for.

It’s really common for magistrates’ court bailiffs to say they’re coming back with a locksmith, but in reality it rarely happens. I’d suggest you go back to the court, explain you’ve done everything you possibly can to prove he doesn’t live at your address but the bailiff is still contacting you. Ask them what else they think you should do in this situation. At the very least you’ll have had that discussion with the court, and if the bailiff tries to get permission from them to force entry it would be extremely unlikely the bailiff could justify the need to do it.

I would advise that you keep your doors locked until this has been resolved. If the bailiff visits and there’s no locksmith with them, there’s no need to even answer the door. Best to keep everything in writing so you have proof of what has been said. I hope it all gets sorted out for you soon.

Susie
@natdebtline