debt collector issues - council tax

SweenyT

Hi
First post so I hope this is in the right place.
Long story but I will keep it as short as possible.
My partner and I moved out of our last property (rented) around 5 years ago. Recently a debt collection agency (Jacobs) have turned up at my mums house (I have never lived at her address) demanding money for an outstanding council tax bill for the rental property from 5 years ago. As far as I was aware we had paid this bill, but I got in contact with the council straight away and discovered it had not in fact been paid, at which point I paid it in full.
My issues are as follows:
The collection agency repeatedly visited my 80 year old registered blind mothers house despite her stating each time that I did not live at the property.
They discussed the nature of the debt with her, despite it being in my sole name.
They encouraged her to draw the cash out of the bank (almost £900 when the actual debt turned out to be less than £500) and told her they would accept cash only and not card payment. They had told her that they would arrest me or remove her goods if it was not paid.(Luckily I happened to phone her the day before they were due and made sure she didn't hand over any cash)
They continue to call at her house (most recently today) with the same spiel re. removing goods / having me arrested despite the debt being paid in full directly to the council several months ago.
Does anyone else have experience of this? How did you resolve it? Or advice on what I can do from here.

Thanks

National_Debtline

Hi SweenyT and welcome to MSE

This sounds like it’s been an upsetting experience for you and your mother. There are guidelines that bailiffs must follow (if they’re collecting council tax they can’t be debt collectors). These are called Taking control of goods: national standards and they state:

• Enforcement agents must not be deceitful by misrepresenting their powers, qualifications, capacities, experience or abilities, including, but not restricted to;
  • Falsely implying or stating that action can or will be taken when legally it cannot be taken by that agent

• Where enforcement agents have identified vulnerable debtors or situations, they should alert the creditor and ensure they act in accordance with all relevant legislation.

You can find them in full here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/353396/taking-control-of-goods-national-standards.pdf.


It certainly sounds like you have grounds to make a complaint about the bailiff’s actions. Your mother could not be held liable for your debt, and they should not have put pressure on her to make a payment. The bailiff would also have had no power to take her goods to pay your debt and it’s also not their decision whether you would be arrested. You can complain to both Jacobs and the council, and if that does not resolve the matter you can complain to the bailiff’s trade association the Civil Enforcement Association (CIVEA) and the Local Government and Social Care Ombudsman (LGSCO).


When you paid the debt to the council did you also pay the bailiff’s fees? Unfortunately you are liable for these even if you paid the council directly. If you haven’t paid the fees it will explain why the bailiffs are still visiting your mother’s address. Council tax bailiffs do not have the right to force entry into a property unless they have previously been inside to make a list of goods. Both your mother and you should keep your doors locked, and if you have a car hide it until this has been resolved. If there is a remaining debt that you can’t afford you can get more advice from one of the free debt advice agencies.


Susie
@natdebtline

CIS

Some councils did(do) use enforcement agencies as debt collectors but its unusual. My old local authority tried them but it didn't work well and it was relatively quickly - much easier to use fully cerificated agents with the powers to enforce.

I would always encourage a complaint if they've acted wrongly - contrary to belief most enforcement companies don't want agents that ignore the rules, it brings too much hassle on their business.

Craig

Neocon

As long as it is paid now it is all ok.

CIS

Not particularly - it sounds like the the whole balance hasn't been paid. The OP needs to confirm if they've paid the council tax and the enforcement agent fees or just the council tax charge.

Where payment is made direct to the local authority there's two ways that it can be dealt with. The local authority can
a) Take the money, clear the council tax balance and leave the enforcement agent to chase the fees.
or
b) Take the money and apportion the payments between the council tax balance and the enforcement agent fees. This would leave some of the council tax charge and some of the fees outstanding.

A recent court case confirmed that simply paying the council direct does not remove any enforcement agent fees which have became due.

If it is just the enforcement agent fees which remain due then the enforcement agent couldn't use any of the methods of enforcement which the council could but they can use a county court case to try and recover their fees.

Craig

Herbie21

SweenyT wrote: »

Hi

My partner and I moved out of our last property (rented) around 5 years ago. Recently a debt collection agency (Jacobs) have turned up at my mums house (I have never lived at her address) demanding money for an outstanding council tax bill for the rental property from 5 years ago. As far as I was aware we had paid this bill, but I got in contact with the council straight away and discovered it had not in fact been paid, at which point I paid it in full.

My issues are as follows:

The collection agency repeatedly visited my 80 year old registered blind mothers house despite her stating each time that I did not live at the property.


They encouraged her to draw the cash out of the bank (almost £900 when the actual debt turned out to be less than £500) and told her they would accept cash only and not card payment. They had told her that they would arrest me or remove her goods if it was not paid.(Luckily I happened to phone her the day before they were due and made sure she didn't hand over any cash)

They continue to call at her house (most recently today) with the same spiel re. removing goods / having me arrested despite the debt being paid in full directly to the council several months ago.

Does anyone else have experience of this? How did you resolve it? Or advice on what I can do from here.

Thanks

This sounds like a dreadful experience for your mother. In order to properly advise, would you mind if I ask a few questions:

You have mentioned that following a visit to your mothers home, you contacted the council and paid the council tax arrears (but not the enforcement agent fees).

The enforcement agent made a further visit to that property and tried to encourage your mother to make payment to him. I am assuming (hence my question) that she did not make payment to the officer?

Your mother should refuse to speak with the enforcement agent.

The problem that you have is that once a debt is passed by the council to the enforcement company, the amount due will comprise bailiff fees. Accordingly, the payment that you have made is merely considered a 'part' payment only. There has been a recent judgment confirming this position which makes clear that paying the council direct will not stop enforcement (as only a part payment has been made).

There has also been a recent Local Government Ombudsman's decision on this subject. I will post a copy up later this afternoon.

Herbie21

Herbie21 wrote: »

There has also been a recent Local Government Ombudsman's decision on this subject. I will post a copy up later this afternoon.

This particular Local Government Ombudsman's decision is a very important one as it refers to 'vulnerability' and the need to provide documentary evidence.

On the subject of payments made direct to the council once bailiff enforcement has commenced, the Ombudsman states as follows:

17. Mr J says the Council was wrong to pass some of the payments he made direct to it, to the bailiff. He says by paying the Council the council tax outstanding he cleared the debt and so the bailiff fees are not enforceable.

18. The enforcement agent fee regulations say if a payment is made that is less than the total debt and fees outstanding, first the Compliance Fee is cleared; the balance is split pro rata between the debt and the fees. Any further payments are split pro rata between the debt and the fees. (Paragraph 13 of The Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014)

19. Mr J was paying the Council directly. The Council was following the law by passing the bailiffs a proportion of these payments to clear the bailiff’s fees. Paying the Council directly does not mean the council tax debt is clear as the Regulations make clear any balance is made up of both the debt and the bailiff fees.

http://www.lgo.org.uk/decisions/benefits-and-tax/other/16-014-707

Olivia&HannahsMum

I Dont know if I am doing this right as I have never been in these circumstances! Moved out of last property council tax was unpaid by partner?!? Jacobs have turned up and am not disputing we owe the amount so total of £1157 is owed I paid £157 there and then. 2 weeks later paid £250 bailiff is saying I have to pay £500 next payment but obviously cannot afford this I can pay £200 can he refuse and remove goods this bailiff has not been in my house always dealt with on doorstep but he just texts me randomly demanding money I am getting very stressed and having really bad panic attacks any advice is greatly appreciated x

CIS

Olivia&HannahsMum wrote: »

I Dont know if I am doing this right as I have never been in these circumstances! Moved out of last property council tax was unpaid by partner?!? Jacobs have turned up and am not disputing we owe the amount so total of £1157 is owed I paid £157 there and then. 2 weeks later paid £250 bailiff is saying I have to pay £500 next payment but obviously cannot afford this I can pay £200 can he refuse and remove goods this bailiff has not been in my house always dealt with on doorstep but he just texts me randomly demanding money I am getting very stressed and having really bad panic attacks any advice is greatly appreciated x

There's two parts to query - the bailiff and the council tax liability.

So you haven't signed an agreement with the bailiff for control of goods ? If not then they can't enter the property to remove goods unless they get peaceful entry first.

What do you mean by "Moved out of last property council tax was unpaid by partner?". Do you mean the council tax charge is from after you left ? If so it or may not be correct for you to be liable, dependent on the exact situation. I see the issue relatively often amongst my clients and the answer is not always straightforward.

Olivia&HannahsMum

Thanks for the quick reply! I haven’t signed anything at all! My partner who am still with didn’t pay the council tax due to spending money elsewhere but I have forgiven him and I am willing to pay the debt I told the bailiff I get paid every 4 weeks so last pay day I paid £250 so the next time I get paid is the 6th Oct but he’s texting me Friday saying £500 due today wen he knows I get paid next week!

CIS

I haven’t signed anything at all! My partner who am still with didn’t pay the council tax due to spending money elsewhere but I have forgiven him and I am willing to pay the debt

Where you living with him at the time the council tax is from ? If so then are you named on the liability order ?

Craig