Berlin Balks

A_Medium_Size_Jock

ilovehouses wrote: »

I think the UK (and European to a lesser extent) car industry is probably a dead industry walking. Yes the governments will try and protect jobs but that will mean the taxpayer just subs people who buy British built cars. I'm surprised you're so down on it - people will find more productive stuff to do. We don't shed any tears for the candlestick makers, lamplighters and knocker uppers - we should, of course, be doing our best to be as efficient as possible and work hard on branding but if other people can knock a car together better than we can let's buy cheaper cars and find some thing else to do instead.

Nicely contradicted by:

ilovehouses wrote: »

Are you getting a commission from Kia? I purchased my last BMW at the same time a neighbour purchased a Kia Sorento. Fast forward 4 years and they're driving a decidedly old car with 40k on the clock and I'm driving something 'as new' with 150k on the clock. The only time I've not had to fanny about making warranty claims was once I started buying BMWs.

Because that confirms my assertion that quality counts.
It will take enormous change for far-eastern manufacturing to reach similar standards of quality; although consumers may be happy with such a difference in some areas I think that as far as cars go, they will not.

I find both Apple and Google's concepts interesting and undoubtedly there is some market there.
TBH if I were either I would be pushing as hard as possible for a major European launch - nothing to do with EU's approach to both these companies of course.
Now that would upset the applecart.
:whistle:

A_Medium_Size_Jock

ilovehouses wrote: »

There's no contradiction - you're looking for an argument which isn't there.

Not at all.
You're doing to more than pontificating and trying to present your opinion as fact - whereas I provide at least some evidence to confirm my POV.
Where is your evidence supporting your stance?

ilovehouses wrote: »

Quality counts but it's down to specification not geography. BMW will knock out 500,000 vehicles produced in China next year. You make it sound like they'll have 3 wheels or something. Given there are plenty of car options I assume Kia are meeting their customer's expectations - just not for me. Distinct from European Dacia which are low specification AND poor build quality.

There will be people who seek out a German made car (I've a Thai friend who is very excited when the clock changes automatically from CET to daylight saving and back). That's a bit niche though.

Then explain with evidence please how much cheaper these Chinese BMW's are to purchase in the EU or indeed the USA compared to a German-built one?
Also provide evidence of why China was chosen for production; was it primarily to pander to Asian markets perchance?
And do stop saying things I have not said; it is both infantile and unnecessary. Producing any product to a high standard costs more as you surely realise.

ilovehouses wrote: »

There will be no need to produce so many cars Europe when we go fully electric. Nothing more than a skateboard with an electric motor (with leather options I'm sure). Even the shipping will be cheaper as they're lighter.

Tesla are just one example where EV's are concerned - where are these made?
Again, not everything must be made in the far east just because labour is cheaper.
Oh and still you're not taking into consideration the ever-nearing-parity of wages which negates so much of your argument.
Have a read of this:

There are Chinese factories as productive as anything in the United States. That obviously gives them something of an edge given Chinese wage rates. But as we can see, as all Chinese factories converge upon American productivity levels then Chinese wages are converging upon American. And they are converging up too, it's not American wages falling. No, whatever you might want to say about not much wage growth in the US they haven't been generally falling to Chinese levels now, have they?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/03/01/chinese-wages-are-showing-paul-krugman-is-right-once-again/#1a09b0b23fea

I suspect that here too we will never agree and everyone is after all entitled to their own opinion; if however you are determined for your opinions to be given any real weight you could at least provide some evidence.

kabayiri

Do people still buy "the car" now?

What I mean by that, is that the lower end (or even mid), market is characterised by ads which sell "the package".

They don't even tell you the retail price of the vehicle on the radio.

If you've ever worked for an American owned fleet lease, you soon realise that they put very little emphasis on the metal on the road.

It's much more about the value add, by which they mean flexible finance; total maintenance solutions; even mileage pooling with family or friends.

In a way, self drive and electric cars, play directly into this total solution package.

I could easily see people leasing vehicle usage by the mile, but it might not even be the same car which turns up from the auto storage area every morning.

By turning the car into a commodity, they will knock the intrinsic value right down, and that makes more room for profit on the value add.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

There's something in what you say about selling "the package"; add-ons (including finance) have increasingly provided much of the income-source for UK retailers over the years.

The idea of total usage solutions and/or leasing usage by the mile might be great in urban areas but if, like me, you're rural that doesn't work quite so well.
Even though we're penalised already with higher fuel prices to go along with the coverage of greater distances needed to live our daily lives, I suspect that increasing the penalty because of increased mileage needs over urban buyers will not go down very well.
Over the lifetime of even a relatively short contract the difference between City Joe's few miles per day and my 60 to 80 would be considerable.

That said I agree that as I say, in urban areas, this may well be a great idea but how will it work in sparsely-populated areas?
It would not be economical to deliver the day's drive to a house 30 or 40 miles from the nearest depot surely, not even considering the reduction in range available to the user after say 80 miles are removed for delivery/collection?

It may be however that solutions will arise that could overcome these difficulties. However the market develops I think we are agreed that the future of cars will be far different to now and that interesting times lay ahead.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

ilovehouses wrote: »

I know. I'm arguing ..........

So it would appear.



It's supposed to be a debate about possibilities of the future of cars, not forum fisticuffs.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

ilovehouses wrote: »

So why not respond to the points being made then?

Other than because of how you deliberately misinterpret the responses you mean?

Again:

ilovehouses wrote: »

I know. I'm arguing ........

Quite.
Persist in such practise without my assistance.

System

German carmakers agree to update software in 5.3 million cars

Oh yes ?- we've been there before. Would that be special software that can detect when an EU investigator is checking the car, and then revert to business as usual when their backs are turned?

A_Medium_Size_Jock

Clifford_Pope wrote: »

German carmakers agree to update software in 5.3 million cars

Oh yes ?- we've been there before. Would that be special software that can detect when an EU investigator is checking the car, and then revert to business as usual when their backs are turned?

Indeed, such is the desperation to avoid financial damage to German carmakers.
Not that some in this thread see that or acknowledge it of course.

Also news this week of Toyota & Mazda combining to start up a new factory in the USA:

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

A $1.6 billion U.S.A. factory will open to manufacture cars in 2021 employing around 4000 people, to produce up to 300,000 vehicles per year.
In a joint venture between Toyota and Mazda.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-toyota-mazda-idUKKBN1AK0QN?il=0

Those suggesting that the future of vehicle manufacture will be mainly in the far east also "forget" little things like tariffs as well as the protectionism of employment.

kabayiri

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

...
Those suggesting that the future of vehicle manufacture will be mainly in the far east also "forget" little things like tariffs as well as the protectionism of employment.

My concern is around the price of even modest motor cars, never mind premium branded ones from the likes of the German auto makers.

They are moving out of the price range of the next gen of buyers at the lower/middle income range. Inventive financing can only hold up sales so long.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

kabayiri wrote: »

My concern is around the price of even modest motor cars, never mind premium branded ones from the likes of the German auto makers.

They are moving out of the price range of the next gen of buyers at the lower/middle income range. Inventive financing can only hold up sales so long.

I do get where you're coming from but TBH there are a few reasons they're maybe moving out of the price range of the next gen of buyers; mainly though because often they're gradually getting bigger.

The Fiesta is one example; the original Fiesta was a far smaller car than the one we see today.
The VW Golf too; compare the size of a Golf today with a Mk2 - and I'm only choosing these as they are the most popular sellers.

Then there are the added electronics.
As if air con were not alone, now your car has to have central locking; electric windows; inbuilt infotainment with bluetooth and USB .............. long-gone are the days of actually turning a key to get into your car or windows where you actually need to wind a handle.
Then there's the safety stuff, like curtain airbags, anti-locking brakes etc. etc.
Individually each may not cost much but together .............