'No stopping' sign only

Daxilic

Hello,

So I got a £130 fine for stopping in a bus lane outside Clapham Junction train station. I literally stopped to drop a friend off and left, it was 10 seconds at most. I've appealed but they rejected it. At this point I have to either pay or appeal through a tribunal, but I don't think it's worth risking that. I have a few questions:

1. Yes I was wrong to stop there, but it was for 10 seconds, and £130 for 10 seconds is completely disproportionate. Is there not a minimum grace period like 1 minute before the fine comes into effect? If not that's ridiculous.

2. I checked for signage, cause at the time I didn't see any signs hence why I stopped there without hesitation. The only relevant sign is a small yellow 'no stopping' sign. This sign doesn't display anything about receiving a penalty if you stop, nor how much the penalty would be, or anything about certain laws. Is it legal for them to fine you without mentioning the consequences on the sign? and if they don't display the amount of the fine on the sign the amount could be arbitrary.

I'm at the realisation that I have to pay the fine but I thought I'd get some clarification and guidance on here first. Thank you in advance.

Coupon-mad

I've appealed but they rejected it. At this point I have to either pay or appeal through a tribunal, but I don't think it's worth risking that.

It is a no-brainer to carry on with the appeal, if they are not offering a discount. If you lost you'd just pay the £130 anyway, it doesn't increase unless a person actually ignores this stage.

You need to show your letters to the experts on pepipoo forum, all letters, every page, and all signs - a Google streetview link too, if it helps to show them the situation:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

But again, unless there is a discount in play there is no point just paying.

Register on pepipoo, no Hotmail emails. Start a new topic - good luck. They'll tell you if there is a case.

Geoff1963

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/58170307ed915d61c5000000/the-highway-code-traffic-signs.pdf
Top of page 2 has 2 signs ; one of which allows dropping off and one of which doesn't.
The yellow one says it's allowed.

The_Deep

Have you done PATAS? If not you should, over 60% of all appeals are upheld.s

unforeseen

The PCN was probably for being in a bus lane when not allowed rather than stopping in it.

Allowing a grace period in a bus lane defeats the object as there would always be vehicles in it, especially in the location of your infringement

Daxilic

It does mention a discount to £65 so it's not that bad but but it's still completely disproportionate, and it's the principle of paying for something that, in my opinion, isn't justified.

On the rejection letter it mentions I can take it further to an independent tribunal but the losing party would have to pay additional fees (doesn't mention how much but I imagine it could be hundreds or thousands?). So for the sake of £65 I'm not sure its worth the risk of losing.

Geoff1963 wrote: »

*link removed*
Top of page 2 has 2 signs ; one of which allows dropping off and one of which doesn't.
The yellow one says it's allowed.

On that PDF top of page two it has the no stopping icon although it just says 'no stopping (Clearway)', where does it say you're allowed to stop?

I would attach a photo of the exact sign but the forum won't allow me to post links or attach images. It's a very small sign in yellow with a blue circle and red cross, then 'bus stop no stopping' written underneath.

The_Deep wrote: »

Have you done PATAS? If not you should, over 60% of all appeals are upheld.s

Never heard of PATAS, what is this?

unforeseen wrote: »

The PCN was probably for being in a bus lane when not allowed rather than stopping in it.

Allowing a grace period in a bus lane defeats the object as there would always be vehicles in it, especially in the location of your infringement

True, although it wasn't a bus lane, it was a bus stop inside the main lane, meaning you have to drive through it or go into the opposite lane to overtake. It was about 10pm and the road was dead at that time, if there was a bus in the bus stop I wouldn't have stopped there.

Coupon-mad

On the rejection letter it mentions I can take it further to an independent tribunal but the losing party would have to pay additional fees (doesn't mention how much but I imagine it could be hundreds or thousands?).

What the heck? Where on earth are you imagining that from?!

You pay £130 if you lose at the TPT. The discount is not in play, THAT'S ALL YOU RISK.

The letter does not say you pay additional 'costs' for taking it to that stage! If it does, that's a procedural impropriety to add to your TPT appeal - and a winning point. But I doubt the letter says that.

Take it to pepipoo now, they know more...you won't regret it. They know everything there is to know.

unforeseen

Daxilic wrote: »

True, although it wasn't a bus lane, it was a bus stop inside the main lane, meaning you have to drive through it or go into the opposite lane to overtake. It was about 10pm and the road was dead at that time, if there was a bus in the bus stop I wouldn't have stopped there.

Fair enough. You said bus lane in your opening post. I could only reply to the (erroneous) information you supplied

Coupon-mad

Next time, stop on double or single yellows, you are allowed to drop off on yellow lines (as long as there are no kerb blips), why do people not know this and keep choosing bus stops and taxi stands?!

The_Deep

It does mention a discount to £65 so it's not that bad but but it's still completely disproportionate, and it's the principle of paying for something that, in my opinion, isn't justified.

Whether you think that a bus lane is justified or not is immaterial, the Council have decided it is.

Geoff1963

On that PDF top of page two it has the no stopping icon although it just says 'no stopping (Clearway)', where does it say you're allowed to stop?

The one next to it on the right :
"No stopping during times shown except for as long as necessary to set down or pick up passengers"

a blue circle and red cross

That is the one below, and "no stopping" rather than "no waiting" does suggest even drop offs aren't allowed. There might be an issue of the sign being too small ; although there might be a general rule about bus stops so it's only a reminder. I'd say parking in a bus stop is generally safer than the general carriageway, because they were chosen to be a safe place to stop.

Modern car technology would allow cruise control to work at say 0.01 mph, which is slow enough for passengers to get in and out. It isn't the zero speed of "stopping", although other road users would be just as affected. Traffic rules really need to catch up with technology ; many refer to "engine running" which is meaningless for an electric car.