Strange POPLA appeal decision

garythehutch

Hey everyone

Just hoping to get some advice. I'll try and stick to the basics.

I had an operation at hospital and the hospital called my Dad to let him know I was ready to be picked up. There was then a problem with finding my medication, so there was a delay.

Now, my Dad was parked in a "drop-off" area. The sign in the area said there was 20 minutes free parking in this drop-off area. My Dad was concerned about how long they were taking, so told the receptionist that he only had 20 minutes. The receptionist said not to worry, and the nurse on my way out also told me not to worry because it was "their fault". The nurse actually told us to ignore any charge notice since it isn't legally binding, but I didn't think that was solid advice.

My Dad then got hit with a fine, but not for a reason we thought. The cameras has the car entering and exiting 22 minutes apart. This is 2 minutes over the alloted time.

So I called ParkingEye, and they said there is no 20 minute parking at this hopsital and she had the signage of the hospital on a database. I dismissed this but went to the hospital to take a picture of the sign regardless to include in my appeal.

I also noted that apparently there is a 10 minute grace period, so technically 22 minutes (if that's even accurate, the evidence shown is sketchy at best) would still be acceptable. The appeal also mentioned that the hospital told us not to worry about it. It was, expectedly, unsuccessful.

I then appealed to POPLA, and this is where it gets really bizarre. ParkingEye gave POPLA the same signage documentaiton that the lady on the phone originally read out to me... and it didn't include the 20 minute free parking sign. I included my picture, and thought this would help in my case.

POPLA have rejected the appeal... not because of the "fact" the car was there for 22 minutes and not 20, but because there was no proof that the picture I took of the sign belonged to that hospital AND there is no designated drop-off area at all (there is!).

My question is, what options do I have? I don't mind paying the fee on behalf of my Dad, but it's the principle of it. It seems that the out of date signage they provided, and the incorrect info ParkingEye has provided has took precidence over fact.

What are my options? Can I appeal to the hopsital? I went to the hopsital in person when I took the photo and they said I would need to go to POPLA, but obviously I ended up getting rejected in the end.

Do I need to take a video of the drop off zone, the 20 minute sign, and then the sign for the hospital to prove that it is in that hospital? I'm totally at a loss.

DoaM

The options are to pay and be done with it (we don't agree with this option), or ignore any and all further correspondence from Parking Eye or debt collectors ... except do not ignore a real Letter Before Claim or actual court papers.

Did you take the photo on your phone?
Does your phone have location history enabled? (Most Android phones have Google location enabled by default)
Can you check your location history (link assumes Google/Android) and correlate location to the date/time of the photo?

If you can then you can probably prove that the photo was taken at the hospital in question. POPLA have basically said you're lying.

But yes - you should raise a complaint with PALS at the hospital and demand they get the PCN cancelled.

garythehutch

Thanks for the helpful reply! :-)

Because it's my Dad's car, I think he'd be nervous of ignoring anything. I kind of want to get it sorted for him to be honest, and I know paying is an option - which I have pondered but at the same time I think it is scandalous.

I have an iPhone and I'm sure location is on there, but I'm more than willing to go and get another photo if necessary... or a video.

Who is PALS? I have been looking on this forum and one guy at North Tyneside hospital (this one is Sunderland Royal - which isn't far away) emailed the facilities manager. Is that the same thing?

DoaM

PALS

garythehutch

Ah, got it. Thanks. I've got the email address for the relevant PALS. Do you recommend using a particular template to send this?

Half_way

put something up here to let others check it

garythehutch

This is what I've drafted. Thoughts? The bits in red are dates and details I need to clarify when I am home

---

Dear PALS Sunderland Royal

I am writing to you in on behalf of my father, who is in great distress due to what we firmly believe is an unfair parking charge. In a nutshell, we have essentially been called liars throughout the appeal process and we would like this putting right. As you are the landowner, I think it is fair to request that you arrange for this parking fine to be cancelled.

To give you some background.

On xx January 2017, I had an operation at the Surgical Day Case unit 5. I arranged with the front desk that my father would be the one to collect me. When myoperation was finished and I had recovered, the nurse kindly called my father to let him know I should be ready to pick up (in about 15-20 minutes). My father made the journey from Washington to the hospital and parked in the designated “pickup/dropoff area”.

Unfortunately, when he arrived, the receptionist informed him that there was a delay in discharging me due to some missing medication. He quickly advised that he only had 20 minutes. The receptionist told him “not to worry”, that it “shouldn’t be too much longer”. During this time, my father sent me a text message advising of this. I explained to the nurse who was caring for me of the situation. The nurse said (and I’m paraphrasing) “Tell him not to worry, and anyway, those are just invoices. They don’t hold any legal weight”.

On XXX 2017, my father received a letter from ParkingEye Ltd advising him that he had a parking charge due to non-payment.

I called ParkingEye and the advisor told me she had a record of all of the signage at this site, and also told me two things:

• That there is NO designated pick-up/drop-off zone at Surgical Day Care 5.
• There is NO sign to suggest 20 minutes free parking.

I went to the hospital on 27th February to take a photo of the sign.

I then appealed this with ParkingEye. My appeal was, unsurprisingly, unsuccessful. I then appealed to POPLA. My appeal to POPLA was unsuccessful because:

• ParkingEye advised there is NO designated pick-up/drop-off zone at Surgical Day Care 5.
• The picture that was taken by me, showing the 20 minute drop-off sign, while noted, did not prove it was in Sunderland.

For absolute clarity, I now include a video showing:

• The Sunderland Royal Hospital Entrance
• The 20 minute free drop-off sign
• The actual pick-up/drop-off area itself.

I would also like to add some points. This has caused my father lots of undue stress, who at 60 years old, does not need this kind of stress. He was honest with your staff about his concerns over waiting and was ensured not to worry. Instead he has received months of worry whilst going through this appeal process. We have been called liars by ParkingEye, who should clearly know which signs they have in your hospitals.

I would also like to add that, as we are both taxpayers and contribute to the NHS, that companies such as ParkingEye and their dishonest and reprehensible do not belong on NHS premises

Yours faithfully

Coupon-mad

I seem to recall Sunderland Hospitals were quite good at cancelling these PCNs and this is urgent, as the POPLA appeal was lost. PE will be shaping up to sue but if they've provided false evidence to POPLA about this location and signage then you need to stand firm and attack this robustly, before letting a court claim arrive.

Here is how to complain:

http://chsft.nhs.uk/patients-and-visitors/complaints-and-compliments/

And I would email ParkingEye (in the name of the keeper/appellant) and inform them that you have made a formal complaint to the NHS Trust because this site DOES have a 20 minute drop-off zone and their evidence misled POPLA.

Then attach your proof (video would be good) to demand PE get lost or you will be showing your evidence to your MP and the DVLA as well as the BPA:

enforcement@parkingeye.co.uk

Be really robust and quick with this one and reply to any ParkingEye email, demanding they cancel (again and again).

Your complaint is good (I would remove the repetition of the word 'stress' in one sentence near the end, change it to distress or upset). And make the end stronger:

I would also like to add that, as we are both taxpayers and contribute to the NHS, that companies such as ParkingEye and their dishonest and reprehensible money-grabbing punitive agenda, do not belong on NHS premises. Indeed - as your Board has no doubt realised but presumably you are stuck with the contract due to someone signing up with ParkingEye for years for your patients and staff to be bled dry - the nasty ANPR camera operation you have allowed here, flagrantly disregards the interests of patients/visitors and staff alike.

Further, this oppressive and aggressive regime flies in the face of the Government's published NHS Car Parking Principles, published some 3 or 4 years ago and further updated to all NHS Trusts in this Health Memorandum:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-car-parking-management-htm-07-03

Sunderland NHS Trust has failed in terms of due diligence with this contract and you have allowed this unsupported, greedy regime to continue, effectively allowing a private company to leech money from patients, staff and visitors with threats of court (and ParkingEye are notoriously litigious). How dare the NHS Trust allow this situation to arise against the Government's clear policy? How exactly do you defend the false 'evidence' that your agent has provided to POPLA to win an appeal against us? What are you going to do to right this wrong for us, and in the long term remove this nasty threat from all sites?

garythehutch

Wow, great response. I'll get right on this tomorrow!

Thank you so much! I'll keep you updated!

garythehutch

Guys

The plot thickens. I've just been down to the hospital to take my video and the sign stating there is a free drop-off zone has even taken down! I'm gobsmacked and disgusted.

I have taken a video and photos regardless as you can still see the wall plugs where the sign was once screwed into.

Coupon-mad

Can you prove the date of the first photos you took for POPLA, from the metadata?