Depression - Employer's responsibilties

FredG

Hi all, I was wondering if any of the knowledgeable folk frequenting this board could help a friend of mine out. I've been advising to the best of my knowledge but there are some real smart cookies on here when it comes to HR/Employment/Legal matters so I thought I'd throw it out here.


My friend has been signed off work with depression and anxiety, her GP and counsellor strongly agree with her that her working environment has been the trigger to this.


Based on the things she has told me and the correspondence she's shown to me I'm a little perturbed to say the least with how they've handled matters.


The business is a small one but with a seven figure turnover. They've got roughly 25 employees split between office (where she works) and warehouse. I am not aware that employment law should differ based on the size of the business but I thought it would give context.


The doctor initially signed her off for the remainder of the week and a full week, 7 working days total. Employer was informed. This past Monday a further 2 weeks was signed off, she called the employer to confirm this was the case.


Today she has received a letter through the post inviting her to a disciplinary hearing for failing to inform the employer of her absence. Calls are not recorded and her only proof is her mobile call logs. She has heard via colleagues that everyone in the office is aware of the nature of her absence as the sole HR representative has took great pleasure in telling them.


In this letter it also informs her that she will not be paid for the period she is off. The MD of the company appears to have a very scattergun approach to sick pay. I believe (awaiting confirmation) that her contract contacts a standardised SSP arrangement, however people are given full sick pay at "manager's discretion".


The environment based on our past conversations before this appears very tit for tat. She is expected to work in excess of her contracted hours every day and is being paid not much more than minimum wage. I have asked her to keep notes of these occasions. She has been penalised with disciplinary meetings before for failing to complete tasks when she is genuinely off her feet. The only colleague in her exact role has also had prior absence due to stress and depression and has now left the company for a comparable role with a salary of 23k as opposed to min-wage. She is expected to complete the work that two people struggled with prior to the other colleague leaving and her sense of responsibility to do this has definitely contributed to this bout of depression.


She has been employed for nearly 3 years with this company so she should have full employment rights by my reckoning. I could expand massively on other incidents in this workplace but I want to focus more on the denial of contracted sick pay and the lack of care in the handling of someone off with serious depression.

Can anyone advise on what steps can be taken by her? I know the first advice would be to leave but if they get the inkling through the grapevine that she's taking holiday for an interview it has a tendency to be cancelled so she feels very much between a rock and a hard place.

Thanks for reading and any help you can provide.

Guest101

FredG wrote: »

Hi all, I was wondering if any of the knowledgeable folk frequenting this board could help a friend of mine out. I've been advising to the best of my knowledge but there are some real smart cookies on here when it comes to HR/Employment/Legal matters so I thought I'd throw it out here.


My friend has been signed off work with depression and anxiety, her GP and counsellor strongly agree with her that her working environment has been the trigger to this. - have they written this down ? Have they done a thorough investigation, e.g. visitng her work?


Based on the things she has told me and the correspondence she's shown to me I'm a little perturbed to say the least with how they've handled matters.


The business is a small one but with a seven figure turnover. They've got roughly 25 employees split between office (where she works) and warehouse. I am not aware that employment law should differ based on the size of the business but I thought it would give context.

The doctor initially signed her off for the remainder of the week and a full week, 7 working days total. Employer was informed. This past Monday a further 2 weeks was signed off, she called the employer to confirm this was the case. - Ok, so 3 weeks total


Today she has received a letter through the post inviting her to a disciplinary hearing for failing to inform the employer of her absence. Calls are not recorded and her only proof is her mobile call logs. - surely email would be better? She has heard via colleagues that everyone in the office is aware of the nature of her absence as the sole HR representative has took great pleasure in telling them. - will they actually risk their own jobs and put it in writing?


In this letter it also informs her that she will not be paid for the period she is off. - has she not sent in the fit notes? The MD of the company appears to have a very scattergun approach to sick pay. I believe (awaiting confirmation) that her contract contacts a standardised SSP arrangement, however people are given full sick pay at "manager's discretion". - full pay is always at employers discretion legal and fair


The environment based on our past conversations before this appears very tit for tat. She is expected to work in excess of her contracted hours every day and is being paid not much more than minimum wage. - is she salaried or hourly? paid overtime? I have asked her to keep notes of these occasions. She has been penalised with disciplinary meetings before for failing to complete tasks when she is genuinely off her feet. The only colleague in her exact role has also had prior absence due to stress and depression and has now left the company for a comparable role with a salary of 23k as opposed to min-wage. She is expected to complete the work that two people struggled with prior to the other colleague leaving and her sense of responsibility to do this has definitely contributed to this bout of depression. - sounds better just to leave


She has been employed for nearly 3 years with this company so she should have full employment rights by my reckoning. - yes after 2 years its full employment rights I could expand massively on other incidents in this workplace but I want to focus more on the denial of contracted sick pay and the lack of care in the handling of someone off with serious depression. - SSP sounds like it should be paid. Care and handling well that's not really here or there.

Can anyone advise on what steps can be taken by her? I know the first advice would be to leave but if they get the inkling through the grapevine that she's taking holiday for an interview it has a tendency to be cancelled so she feels very much between a rock and a hard place. - perhaps don't tell people?

Thanks for reading and any help you can provide.

Well realistically she needs a new job, there's not a lot else. If they sack her for the work issue, she may be able to claim unfair dismissal. Which is probably why they're going down the abcentism route

FredG

Guest101 wrote: »

Well realistically she needs a new job, there's not a lot else. If they sack her for the work issue, she may be able to claim unfair dismissal. Which is probably why they're going down the abcentism route

Thanks for the response. Again, much of it is there for context and they definitely would be arrogant enough to have it in writing, it might be worth getting her to throw a DSAR in to obtain. I would not expect a GP to visit a workplace, the information as I've said is for context to give anyone reading an idea of what is being dealt with.


I appreciate that this kind of thing is often a black and white issue in terms of legality but it's also an emotive one for the sufferer which is what I'm trying to get across.


By the sounds of it, they aren't trying to manage her out. Her sickness record was fine until this point and they are totally dependent on her with regard to the scope of the role. As soon as she looks like leaving they pander to her for a week or two and then it returns to normal. It's more like a case of being put in her place.


Employer was given advanced notice of the likelihood of further time off being signed off by the GP, sicknote was collected on Monday and posted on Tuesday. Letter to inform of disciplinary was posted on Tuesday and received on Wednesday. Seems to me they couldn't run to the post box any quicker!


Edit - To answer your other questions - yes she is salaried and contracted for 37.5 hours weekly. No overtime is claimed or paid.


But yes, I agree that she's better off out of there. I just wanted to sound out people based on their conduct and if they are close to the knuckle on anything procedurally. I will ensure I strip all emotion from the post in future.

elsien

Is she in a union? Union reps can be variable, but in her position that would be my starting point. (They tend not to take on existing disputes, but if she's already a union member, go to them first.)

FredG

elsien wrote: »

Is she in a union? Union reps can be variable, but in her position that would be my starting point. (They tend not to take on existing disputes, but if she's already a union member, go to them first.)

She isn't unfortunately. Would have been good to have the support with hindsight but it's one of those things that people don't see coming.

Guest101

FredG wrote: »

Thanks for the response. Again, much of it is there for context and they definitely would be arrogant enough to have it in writing, it might be worth getting her to throw a DSAR in to obtain. I would not expect a GP to visit a workplace, the information as I've said is for context to give anyone reading an idea of what is being dealt with. - yes but without having a full assessment the diagnosis is depression, the cause is open though. I mean would colleagues put in writing that HR shared confidential information?


I appreciate that this kind of thing is often a black and white issue in terms of legality but it's also an emotive one for the sufferer which is what I'm trying to get across. - absolutely but emotions don't come into it when discussing employment law


By the sounds of it, they aren't trying to manage her out. Her sickness record was fine until this point and they are totally dependent on her with regard to the scope of the role. - possibly, but she's had previous disciplinaries As soon as she looks like leaving they pander to her for a week or two and then it returns to normal. It's more like a case of being put in her place. - well it sounds like they have stopped pandering


Employer was given advanced notice of the likelihood of further time off being signed off by the GP, sicknote was collected on Monday and posted on Tuesday. Letter to inform of disciplinary was posted on Tuesday and received on Wednesday. Seems to me they couldn't run to the post box any quicker! - well she can self cert for 5 days, but email would help


Edit - To answer your other questions - yes she is salaried and contracted for 37.5 hours weekly. No overtime is claimed or paid. - well then simply turn off at 5 (or whatever) and go


But yes, I agree that she's better off out of there. I just wanted to sound out people based on their conduct and if they are close to the knuckle on anything procedurally. I will ensure I strip all emotion from the post in future.

It sounds like they want her out, as you don't put in disciplinary 24 hours after a sick call

FredG

Guest101 wrote: »

It sounds like they want her out, as you don't put in disciplinary 24 hours after a sick call

To me knowing more background of past incidents and behavioural cycles I can see that it looks that way on the surface but it's a frequent tactic they use to force compliance based on historical events.


Are you just a bit upset you didn't get to copy and paste "2 years, no rights!" in here?

Bogalot

What good would a subject access request do? It will only give her whatever information they choose to send (anything negative is likely to disappear from her records) and it will certainly get their backs on.

If you want this to end amicably, either in leaving or returning to work, I would not recommend an SAR.

FredG

Bogalot wrote: »

What good would a subject access request do? It will only give her whatever information they choose to send (anything negative is likely to disappear from her records) and it will certainly get their backs on.

If you want this to end amicably, either in leaving or returning to work, I would not recommend an SAR.

Definitely true. It wasn't something I'd have realistically suggested to be honest. What they say is their business and like you say, things would disappear. I'm encouraging her to resign and go somewhere where her skillset would be more appreciated.

BJV

As an employer yes I think that they are wrong. BUT and it is a big but, if your friend is unwell and her job is a route cause would it be a healthy place for her to be.

I think that the employer however has to be very careful. Clinical depression once diagnosed is classed as a disability. They are then running the risk of not only being held up for unfair dismissal but also discrimination.

That said I hate to say it but if an employer wants you out they will get you out and they could make it very difficult for her, which in her current health could do a lot of damage.

P.s Good luck and I sincerely hope she gets better. 1 in 4 of us are going to suffer some depression in our life time so I think it is about time we wake up to it and the fact that depression will be a part of the working environment.

Guest101

FredG wrote: »

To me knowing more background of past incidents and behavioural cycles I can see that it looks that way on the surface but it's a frequent tactic they use to force compliance based on historical events. - Well fair enough, obviously I wouldn't be staying.


Are you just a bit upset you didn't get to copy and paste "2 years, no rights!" in here?

Why would I be upset? Seems abit of a strange thing to say when someone is helping you