If the Labour Party didn't exist, would anyone today invent it?

Moby

westernpromise wrote: »

Certainly not the Labour Party. Khorbiyn has said he doesn't agree with any cap on immigration. He thinks it should be unlimited. See the Labour Party's record on immigration when in power for the evidence that this attitude is agreed on by all the Labour Party.

So on protecting workers, that's a fail.

I don't have your crystal ball western.....we all know Corbyn is about as much use as a chocolate teapot, no dispute there but your thread starter was wider and referred to the irrelevance of a left of centre movement generally. In relation to this I still believe a well organised and properly led Labour Party based in Parliament can make a difference. The parties worked together during WW2 and then Atlee formed a govmt post war which changed the whole country in relation to the NHS, pensions etc. is an example. Nothing at all is certain in our future. Brexit has changed so much. Labour has to make itself relevant again and there will be ample opportunities for that in the coming years........... The cost of living is bound to go up, (i've noticed major increases in my food bills recently); the social care crisis; the crisis in the NHS; employment rights/security in a possible post brexit UK without trade deals in place; global warming; how resources are distributed; managing markets so they work for everyone; supporting the disadvantaged and excluded etc. Wilson made Labour relevant in the sixties by talking about the white heat of technology....etc.

We need to get shot of the Corbyn idiots and hopefully that won't be long now!....even the new MP in Stoke Central has no time for him....it's not as if Corbyn's support in the ranks of the PLP is growing and he is 70ish now!

Conrad

I agree Moby that there is a definite role for a left of centre party such as Labour, but that it wont regain power until it has a fundamental root n branch clear-out of what we tend to think of as the intellectual / urban / middle class / graduate / never had a 'proper' job / virtue signalling / disconnected brigade that ask questions at PMQ's about benefits and refugees, not about the thrill of enterprise or the lot of your self employed trades working up and down the land.


Labour could thrive by being populated with people like Dan Jarvis, John Prescott types.


Just take for example the current Treasury Shadow, Long-Bailey. Whilst she is genuine working class she is an utter joke. Yes she worked in a betting shop but she would be utterly clueless when it comes to being part of a Govt team running the economy

Instead of under-pinning a pro enterprise landscape her real passions would be for regulation, equality (identity politics) grandstanding right-on measures associated with workers rights, diversity initiatives and transgender loo's.

None of this would give ordinary working class people the decent dignified jobs and aspirant hope filled landscape they crave. No hard working self employed roofer could take her kind seriously, as they would see these Labour MPs as drippy and lacking common sense

antrobus

Moby wrote: »

Things change you know. Workers rights could become a very live issue again if we hard Brexit without a trade deal. Who will protect the workers then?

Isn't that supposed to be the job of the Labour Party? If Labour can't 'protect the workers' without the help of the EU, then what the f... flippin use is it?

(Which is apart from the fact, that I fail to see why workers rights would change as a direct consequence of the nature of Brexit.)

Moby

Conrad wrote: »

I agree Moby that there is a definite role for a left of centre party such as Labour, but that it wont regain power until it has a fundamental root n branch clear-out of what we tend to think of as the intellectual / urban / middle class / graduate / never had a 'proper' job / virtue signalling / disconnected brigade that ask questions at PMQ's about benefits and refugees, not about the thrill of enterprise or the lot of your self employed trades working up and down the land.


Labour could thrive by being populated with people like Dan Jarvis, John Prescott types.


Just take for example the current Treasury Shadow, Long-Bailey. Whilst she is genuine working class she is an utter joke. Yes she worked in a betting shop but she would be utterly clueless when it comes to being part of a Govt team running the economy

Instead of under-pinning a pro enterprise landscape her real passions would be for regulation, equality (identity politics) grandstanding right-on measures associated with workers rights, diversity initiatives and transgender loo's.

None of this would give ordinary working class people the decent dignified jobs and aspirant hope filled landscape they crave. No hard working self employed roofer could take her kind seriously, as they would see these Labour MPs as drippy and lacking common sense

The bulk of the PLP have turned their back on shadow roles as a protest against Corbyn. He therefore has to scrape a team together from the left wing loons and the new entrants; Long Bailey is a new entrant who has been pushed by McDonnell. I agree the careerist politicians need to get experience of real life work.....but that applies to all parties not just Labour. The fact is there is a disconnect generally and it is right that MP's are being called out for it. You emphasise enterprise again and again....nothing wrong in that but there has to be balance....not everyone in life wants to or is able to run a business. Besides many businesses fail. People also want answers to questions about welfare, illness, services etc. MP's have to be seen to be representing their constituents and holding the govmt to task on resources.......that is therefore not necessarily 'virtue signalling' or 'game playing'.Workers rights are not 'right on'...they are fundamental to someones life. I for one would rather live in a country that has them (e.g Sweden/Germany), than one that doesn't! The fact that I get good leave, get sick pay, there is maternity/paternity leave etc is important to me and to my family. It's the sign of a civilised society in which I would be able to enjoy life and not be held to account by a selfish employer. For that reason I would always fight for these things because I don't take them for granted.

Moby

antrobus wrote: »

Isn't that supposed to be the job of the Labour Party? If Labour can't 'protect the workers' without the help of the EU, then what the f... flippin use is it?

(Which is apart from the fact, that I fail to see why workers rights would change as a direct consequence of the nature of Brexit.)

My question was rhetorical....I was assuming posters would know I saw this as the point of Labour!
Re. the change in workers rights point....you may be right..... but if we don't get a deal on trade and brexit on WTO terms costs of importing goods services etc are clearly going to rise....in fact they are rising already. ..........surely that puts pressure on profit margins............that's the perfect environment for an attack on terms and conditions of service of the employed ?

antrobus

Moby wrote: »

My question was rhetorical....I was assuming posters would know I saw this as the point of Labour!

And what makes you think my response wasn't rhetorical.:)

michaels

What is interesting is that once hmans reach a certain level of physical comfort then their happiness seems to be more correlated with their relative situation with regards to their peers rather than their abolute level of well-being.

Thus socialism trying to acheive eqaulity of outcome will not actually make the majority of people happy and people may naturally prefer the Tory philosphy of equality of opportunity as you then have the cahnce to improve your lot relative to others.

I still think we don't have a centre left party in the UK at the moment and that that void should be filled. Gideon who despite his many faults was a canny political operator tried to park the Tory tanks on the centre ground as soon as Labour vacated it under Corbyn but the current Tories seem to be much more of the 'there is no effective opposition so lets do some of the more nasty things our core supports like'.

kinger101

antrobus wrote: »

Slavery was abolished in the UK as a result of the Norman conquest. So a bit more like a thousand years.

http://www.historytoday.com/marc-morris/normans-and-slavery-breaking-bonds

Certainly, there was a European inspired slave trade that began in the 16thC, expanded in the 18thC. There was a widespread movement Britain against this slave trade which resulted in the Slave Trade Act 1807 and the Slavery Abolition Act 1833. After which, we deployed the Royal Navy to frustrate the slave trade, and I think we even bribed the likes of Portugal to ban slavery.



Is the Modern Slavery Act 2015 not up to the job in some way?

The sad thing is that there are thousands of slaves working in the UK today. But if people can get their car washed for £5 they don't care.

antrobus

Moby wrote: »

....Re. the change in workers rights point....you may be right..... but if we don't get a deal on trade and brexit on WTO terms costs of importing goods services etc are clearly going to rise....in fact they are rising already. ..........surely that puts pressure on profit margins............that's the perfect environment for an attack on terms and conditions of service of the employed ?

Of course, I'm bl**dy right. I'm always bl**dy right.

I just I don't see why, anything is going to change as regards the legal framework of workers rights. The blessed Theresa May set our 12 principles and no 7 was 'Protect workers' rights. Not only will the government protect the rights of workers set out in European legislation, we will build on them'. She might well even mean it.

Pressure on profit margins (arising for whatever reason) might well inspire employers to 'attack' the terms and conditions of service of the employed. But that's what trades unions are for.

antrobus

michaels wrote: »

...I still think we don't have a centre left party in the UK at the moment and that that void should be filled....

No we don't. But then it's tough to be a centre left party when you have a big deficit. Maybe the Liberal Democrats should fill the void. I'm sure they will have a bash.

michaels wrote: »

.... Gideon who despite his many faults was a canny political operator tried to park the Tory tanks on the centre ground as soon as Labour vacated it under Corbyn but the current Tories seem to be much more of the 'there is no effective opposition so lets do some of the more nasty things our core supports like'.

What nasty things has the Maybot done? As far as I can see, since becoming PM in July 2016 what she has managed to do is to park a whole battalion of tanks on the centre ground and enjoyed double digit leads in the opinion polls.