Our National Debt

Thrugelmir

venison wrote: »

I beg to differ Osborne in 2015 told is it would be easy that he would do it and that it could be done, when anyone with half a brain cell knew that austerity was a recipe for economic disaster, and how right we have been proven.

Then please enlighten us as to the alternative view? I'm not a fan of Osborne. However find me a quote where he said it would be "easy". Deficit reduction was always going to be painful. If you think it's tough now, then you ain't seen nothing yet. Tough decisions will need to be made. Only Brownites believe in magic money trees .

antrobus

venison wrote: »

So a "business" with a £800 billion turnover has no money? ...

Yes, if the cost of generating that turnover is £850 billion. The basic rule of business is that cash in must exceed cash out. Otherwise you go bust.

It can happen to states as well. See Greece for example.

venison wrote: »

..That was the moment I realised that the coalition was doomed to fail, after all in tough times a little humour goes a long long way

Depends on what you mean by 'fail'. I'd say that compared to the performance of that man Brown the coalition was a rip-roaring success.

wotsthat

antrobus wrote: »

So "austerity was a recipe for economic disaster"? So how come the IMF says we have the fastest growing economy in the G7? How come we now have the highest employment since 1971?

Austerity never happened?

We had a change of colour in the government but they still spent money like a drunken sailor on shore leave. Yes, I suppose you could call it a progress of sorts that they spent less than our former drunken shipmate.

wotsthat

Thrugelmir wrote: »

No one said it would be easy to balance the books. Majority of events are outside the control of the Chancellor. Policies can set the course but not the outcome. To think otherwise would be daft. Setting objectives is as much about giving confidence to overseas investors so that they will continue to lend the UK money. As the UK is highly dependent upon the charity of strangers.

Except when you're blaming Gordon Brown of course.

TrickyTree83

wotsthat wrote: »

Austerity never happened?

We had a change of colour in the government but they still spent money like a drunken sailor on shore leave. Yes, I suppose you could call it a progress of sorts that they spent less than our former drunken shipmate.

Could you imagine the screams from the entitled if costs were cut back to actually give us a budget surplus?

wotsthat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Could you imagine the screams from the entitled if costs were cut back to actually give us a budget surplus?

To an extent we don't need to imagine. Just think of the spare room 'tax' and child benefit changes and multiply the shrillness and volume.

It's the simplest job in the world to give people 'free' money and one of the hardest to stop.

Needs a complete change in mindset. I don't even like the term 'government spending' as it makes it sound like it's their money. It isn't - they're spending my money on my behalf.

When I hear someone lobbying for the government to spend money on x, y or z all I hear is someone suggesting that my money be spent on x, y or z.

Until the electorate stop allowing themselves to be bribed with their own and other people's money nothing will change and rent seeking will remain the UK's most popular pastime.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

wotsthat wrote: »

To an extent we don't need to imagine. Just think of the spare room 'tax' and child benefit changes and multiply the shrillness and volume.

It's the simplest job in the world to give people 'free' money and one of the hardest to stop.

Needs a complete change in mindset. I don't even like the term 'government spending' as it makes it sound like it's their money. It isn't - they're spending my money on my behalf.

When I hear someone lobbying for the government to spend money on x, y or z all I hear is someone suggesting that my money be spent on x, y or z.

Until the electorate stop allowing themselves to be bribed with their own and other people's money nothing will change and rent seeking will remain the UK's most popular pastime.

That's twice today I agree with you!
Which can only mean that the world is indeed going mad.

That being the case, perhaps there is a chance that the millions on a huge variety of benefits of ANY description could be persuaded by the remaining electorate to at least acknowledge and reduce the "entitlement" culture.

A few major shake-ups should start the ball rolling, just two examples being:

* Reform the NHS, from the top down, using current funding levels and reducing wastage of all types. For example, giving free prescriptions for Paracetamol and Ibuprofen (just for examples mind, since these are silly-cheap to buy) should stop. As should NHS funding for so many non-life-threatening procedures like gender reassignment.

* A complete pension review. As with the NHS, it NEEDS doing - and not with more half-measure stopgaps. Morally at least it cannot be fair to expect someone who has saved into a pension all their lives to be penalised when those (ahem) less-thrifty are gifted so much. So care must be taken.

Perhaps (from the above examples) one option is to vilify to some degree at least those who take the most out in benefits.
I'm not suggesting castigation.
But it is not really so long ago that children getting free school meals for example were seen as a kind of "underclass", as were those who did not pay for prescriptions or those in receipt of housing benefits.

In too many cases these examples now are the norm - and this needs to change.
As Wotsthat says above, stopping such entitlement is indeed extremely difficult and yes, even perhaps unpalatable.
But something needs to be done.

Now, which party could be persuaded ................

MyOnlyPost

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

A few major shake-ups should start the ball rolling, just two examples being:

* Reform the NHS, from the top down, using current funding levels and reducing wastage of all types. For example, giving free prescriptions for Paracetamol and Ibuprofen (just for examples mind, since these are silly-cheap to buy) should stop. As should NHS funding for so many non-life-threatening procedures like gender reassignment.

I agree with this and in my locality it has already happened. I would like to add the caveat that with a note from your doctor you should be able to purchase 200 paracetamol or Ibuprofen at once, as you can get with a presrcription. Operations is more difficult as where do you draw the line. In my 20's I had to have a certain operation that is popular in Judaism for newborn boys and this was classed as cosmetic surgery. I assure you I didn't have it done to make it look prettier.

There is a lot of waste in bureaucracy with two many managers and not enough frontline staff as well as the contracting out of some services. An unnamed (I don't want to get in to trouble here) company were charging the NHS over £100 each time a cleaner had to clean a blood spill at my local hospital. The cleaners were already at work and weren't paid any exttra, as a for instance

Benefits should not be a way of life and should be reserved for those in need. All too often those who have worked and contributed are denied some benefits if they lose their job or fall on hard times whilst those who have never worked play the system and seem to stay on them for life. The whole tax & benefit system is wasteful as people are taxed on income then receive tax credits to top up their wages which is all added bureaucracy. Government could raise the personal tax allowance and lower tax credits leaving no-one worse off than they currently are but lifting some people out of benefits altogether and saving the tax and benefit admin costs on those individuals.

steampowered

Everyone seems to think there is lots of money to save by eliminating waste in the NHS.

I disagree. I think this is a myth. I do not think the evidence justifies that - I am sure there is some waste but not enough to make substantial savings.

When you look at the figures, the UK's spending on healthcare is low when compared to other countries. The UK spends 8.2% of its GDP on healthcare. The EU average is 10.1%. In the EU only Ireland and Luxembourg spend less. The United States is at about 17%. (click here for a graph).

I also disagree that the NHS has too many managers. The actual figures indicate that 4.8% of the NHS' work force are managers, compared to 15.4% of the UK workforce as a whole.

steampowered

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Reform the NHS, from the top down, using current funding levels and reducing wastage of all types. For example, giving free prescriptions for Paracetamol and Ibuprofen (just for examples mind, since these are silly-cheap to buy) should stop. As should NHS funding for so many non-life-threatening procedures like gender reassignment.

The NHS has been "reformed" several times in the past few decades. Each time a pointless waste of taxpayer money.

How much money are you really going to save by stopping prescriptions for paracetamol and gender reassignment surgery? Not enough to make a significant difference.

Let me run some figures for you. The NHS spent £87m on paracetamol prescriptions last year. The NHS budget last year was £116.4 billion. In other words, 0.07% of the budget.

I think you've fallen into the trap of believing that it is very easy to make big savings. It isn't. The easy savings have already been made. Saving meaningful amounts means a painful reduction in services.