Are degrees in the UK value for money?

adindas

GreatApe wrote: »

Your argument that the system is the system and therefore must be fully valid and correct because it is the system is very weak

A good degree from a doog university shows interest and intelligence most companies hire as a proxy for interest and intelligence. If you go work at the big banks they hire mostly engineers physicists and math grads because those people have an interest and intelligence with mathematics and logical thinking. An investment bank really doesn't need an aeronautical engineer or a chemical engineer most the degree is fluff that will never be used but the degree shows the interest and intelligence which is what the banksbare hiring on.

Is there a way to show your intelligence and interest in a certain area. Sure but it means being interviewed and hired by someone in the fonoany who can see that. So with big companies and HR departments that is not going to happen. With small conaonies or talking directly to the directors they can and do hire on those terms.

I just hired five full time people and all I did was talk to them for a couple of hours to gauge their competence interest and work ethics. 3 don't have degrees 2 do. If I was a big company and with a bug HR department and I needed five good people i probably couldn't say go find me five capable people I would have to say must have degree in subjects X from universities Y.

I agrree not all jobs need people with degrees, not all people graduate from universities are intelligent. Probably intelligent people studying at the universities form small minorities, not all jobs need intelligent people. You will somtimes see people with MBA degree, people with Master's degree in Business and Management are stacking item on the shelves of major chain supermarkets. People with degrees in sport management become caddies, receptionists the jobs that do not need degree at all while their managers do not have degrees at all.

But the fact that majorities of the companies (if not all) that I mentioned previously keep recruiting their future engineers from universities graduates especially from well known universities as the backbones of their recruitment strategies has proven that they need universities to make up their future engineers. Had they found a better way of recruiting graduates they need they would have done that since a long time ago.

The fact that you are not aware that many major companies such as Aiurbus, Nasa, Boeing, BAE and other companies I mentioned previously recruit A-level with good grade and then enrol then on part time courses at universties prove that you have a very little knowledge in these areas but try to introduce a very controversial idea telling them that they are stupid with the curent methods they are suing to make theit future engineers.

Rather than boastering your revolutionary idea and keep telling that HR in large companies are brainless idiots, etc you have better sell your ideas to large industries, governments accross the globe. If you could convince them it will be a breakthrough as it will be minimising the cost of making the future graduates. If you could sell, dissiminating your ideas to the industries and government across the globe and if they convince, you will become a multi-millionaire (even billionaires). Come back on this thread in a few years later and tell what you have got, people might also read this idea from the news.

GreatApe

adindas wrote: »

I agrree not all jobs need people with degrees, not all people graduate from universities are intelligent. Probably intelligent people studying at the universities form small minorities, not all jobs need intelligent people. You will somtimes see people with MBA degree, people with Master's degree in Business and Management are stacking item on the shelves of major chain supermarkets. People with degrees in sport manegement become a caddy or receptionists while their managers do not have degrees at all.

But the fact that majorities of the companies that mentioned previously keep recruiting their future engineers from universities graduates especially from well known universities as the backbones of their recruitment strategies tell that they need universities to make up their future engineers. Had they found a better way of recruiting graduates they need they would have done that since a long time ago.

The fact that you are not aware that many major companies such as Aiurbus, Nasa, Boeing, BAE and other companies I mentioned previously recruit A-level with good grade and then enrol then on part time courses at universties prove that you have a very little knowledge in these areas but try to introduce a very controversial idea telling them that they are stupid with the curent methods they are suing to make theit future engineers.

Rather than boastering your revolutionary idea and keep telling that HR in large companies are brainless idiots, etc Why do not you sell your ideas to these large industries, governments accross the globe. If you could convince them it will be a breakthrough as it will be minimising the cost of making the future graduates. If you could sell dissiminating your ideas to the industries and government across the globe and if they convince, you will become a multi-millionaire (even billionaires). Come back on this thread in a few years time and tell what you have got, people might also read this idea from the news.

I can't compete with free
Asking for a persons degree information is free and it has at least somewhat a good correlation with interest and ability.

Also you seem to have an unrealistic idea about large companies. They are not particularly efficient. If you worked for a large company you would know. I've been sent on weeks long fully paid five star hotel stays to do various courses. Totally needless but your train of thought is if these large companies are doing this it must be necessary efficient and good.

Your argument is a simple argument from authority. If big companies ask for degrees they must be fully and wholely useful and needed becuaee a big large company asks for them

Cakeguts

The sad thing about all of this is that if A levels were returned to the standard they used to be rather than the dumbed down O level standard that they are now. HR departments would be able to pick who to interview from the A levels like they used to do. It would save many young people 3 years of wasted time getting a degree in nothing and a huge debt to pay for the nothing.

I really can't ever understand why parents aren't complaining about the dumbed down school exam standards. It is an absolute scandal that so many young people are having to pay for a standard of education that my generation got for free at school. Where does it end? Who is to stop it getting to the point that all school leavers at 18 will only have got to the standard that my generation got to at the end of primary school. Will we have an exam at 18 the standard of the old 11 plus exam? How much education will future generations have to pay for that used to be free. Why not just introduce private education for everyone now and stop dumbing down standards? To be honest I am absolutely disgusted at the level of degrees that some poor students are being expected to pay for. Some of them have masters that are not quite as good as 1 old A level. That is 4 extra paid for years to get to the educational level that my generation got to at 18.

We now have teachers with dumbed down degrees the standard of 3 old O levels. It isn't looking good for the majority of students who are attending these 6th form standard universities.

westernpromise

I don't understand why you're so obsessed with engineers. The country needs very few engineers and most people, when you say "British" and "engineer", think "Austin Allegro", i.e. we're not noted for their quality.

GreatApe

adindas wrote: »

You have better sell your ideas to these large multinational companies and Government across the world.

If your revolutionary idea was bought by large multinational companies and governemnt arounf the world, you could start boistering yourself that I am an inventor of new ways in recruting gradutes. If you could convince them you might becoma a sudden multimillionaire (or even a billionaire).

Advertise your revolutionary ideas in the media about the way to recruit their future engineers. Please keep the forum informed. Link to that initiative will be good to be discussed. Waiting for that link to be discussed here.

What don't you understand there is no cost for a company to request a degree its mostly a very quick filter. For the better subjects and universities it is a filter for interest and intelligence and for the lower subjects and universities it is a base filter for literary and for the lower liability risk

kabayiri

westernpromise wrote: »

I don't understand why you're so obsessed with engineers. The country needs very few engineers and most people, when you say "British" and "engineer", think "Austin Allegro", i.e. we're not noted for their quality.

Speculate to accumulate I say.

Get a chip design right (as my ex-colleague did), and it can feature in a billion smartphones.

Design big data & search with innovative solutions, and you corner the internet ad space as Google did.

I can't think of too many other fields where you can have such a global impact from a small pool of individuals.

Have you ever heard of a few Estate Agents changing the future?

There's a reason why the Chinese premier chose a few labs in Manchester to visit when he was asked where he wanted to go on his UK visit. It's because advanced materials science has the potential to revolutionise the way we develop the next generation of product.

Think big I say. That's exactly what the engineering pioneers like Maxwell and Brunel did.

Cakeguts

GreatApe wrote: »

What don't you understand there is no cost for a company to request a degree its mostly a very quick filter. For the better subjects and universities it is a filter for interest and intelligence and for the lower subjects and universities it is a base filter for literary and for the lower liability risk

This is what a lot of the parents of these students don't understand. The students are paying for a degree in nothing so that the HR departments can write them off the lists of people they want to interview for a job that doesn't need a degree in anything anyway. The students are paying a small fortune to save the companies interviewing them all.

This is another aspect that I don't understand why parents and teachers are not complaining about. Why does anyone need to pay for a degree in nothing so that the local companies can decide which degrees in nothing they want to inteview the owners of. Surely the schools should be educating to the standard the allows companies to choose not expecting the students to pay for something that the school teachers haven't done in term of education.

Jackmydad

westernpromise wrote: »

I don't understand why you're so obsessed with engineers. The country needs very few engineers and most people, when you say "British" and "engineer", think "Austin Allegro", i.e. we're not noted for their quality.

The Allegro had it's faults, but it was a belated attempt by an already failing industry to keep going. There was no money for new investment.

It was, for all it's failings, a better car than would have been designed by someone with a degree in golf management, or any of the other similar degrees on offer.

I'm all for "free" selective education of the best students, and raising, not lowering standards.

adindas

westernpromise wrote: »

I don't understand why you're so obsessed with engineers. The country needs very few engineers and most people, when you say "British" and "engineer", think "Austin Allegro", i.e. we're not noted for their quality.

Pointless discussion. This is the shortage occupation list that have been published by the UK governments. They do not have enough supply in this country so they will need to recruit from other countries. Read this andif you have objections please send your comments and objection to the government.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-k-shortage-occupation-list

GreatApe wrote: »

What don't you understand there is no cost for a company to request a degree its mostly a very quick filter. For the better subjects and universities it is a filter for interest and intelligence and for the lower subjects and universities it is a base filter for literary and for the lower liability risk

There are reasonable number of very intelligent graduate in finance and accounting. Have you ever seen them work as an aerospace, aeronautics engineer in Airbus, Nasa, BAE, Boeing ??

You have been challenged to prove your ideas in the real world. It might also be your interest as if you could convince them, that they do not need a university graduate instead just recuit A-level with good grade no further education at the university leve required you might become a sudden millionaire.

Want to see your advertisement to be discussed here.

Cakeguts

adindas wrote: »

Pointless discussion. This is the shortage occupation list that have been published by the UK governments. They do not have enough supply in this country so they will need to recruit from other countries. Read this andif you have objections please send your comments and objection to the government.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-k-shortage-occupation-list



There are reasonable number of very intelligent graduate in finance and accounting. Have you ever seen them work as an aerospace, aeronautics engineer in Airbus, Nasa, BAE, Boeing ??

You have been challenged to prove your ideas in the real world. It might also be your interest as if you could convince them, that they do not need a university graduate instead just recuit A-level with good grade no further education at the university leve required you might become a sudden millionaire.

Want to see your advertisement to be discussed here.

The A level good grade is impossible because everyone who takes A levels these days get good grades because the exams have become much easier so that more people will pass and get a place at a university to pay to study nothing.

What needs to happen is to make A levels much harder and marking get stiffer so that only the top 8% maximum of marks get As. Once you start to do it this way you can get back to the point where the people doing degrees in nothing don't pass A levels at all. They could get marked as AS levels or something so that the employers can see exactly who gets what. The now rubbish university people would not get A levels or As levels so without them having to pay anything towards a degree in nothing they could be left off the interview lists of jobs that needed someone with a bit of intelligence and it would cost the student nothing to find out. At the moment it is costing students a lot of money to get degrees in nothing to find out that they are not intelligent enough to get a job where there is any form of competition for work.

What I object to is that the unintelligent students are being conned into spending a lot of money doing degrees in nothing because the school education system leaves out knowledge about where you stand in terms of what sort of job you can expect to get. If this was included students would be able to decide whether or not to get into debt and to waste 3 years getting a degree in nothing. They might even be able to get a training course in something instead.