Are degrees in the UK value for money?

Malthusian

Lingua wrote: »

The issue there, you see, is that degrees are quite often interchangeable for a wide range of fields. While you of course need to study Medicine to become a doctor, it's not so clear-cut for other domains. Besides that, you are essentially saying that only those subjects which contribute to the economy have any intrinsic value, completely ignoring the immeasurable importance of the arts and other creative subjects. It's hyper-capitalistic.

The arts are important. Arts degrees are not. If we made it illegal to study the arts at university, on pain of death, the number of actors, painters and novelists in the country would remain exactly the same. People would still try to forge careers in the arts, they just wouldn't go to university for three years before they started doing so.

I have no problem if somebody wants to expand their horizons by studying the history of art for three years, but the case for making Joe Bloggs pay for it is very weak.

All of this isn't even to mention the issue of widening participation for disadvantaged students, the varying quality of universities, or the difficulty in collating and managing a list of 'in-demand' subjects. For example, would you support funding a nursing degree from Suffolk (worst university in the country according to: https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings) even though its teaching is not as robust as other establishments?

No. Making nursing into a graduate career is widely acknowledged as an unmitigated disaster. The Suffolk nursing graduates would be much better nurses if they'd spent three years working as nurses.

Equally, how would you encourage long-term study in secondary and post-secondary education to specialise in specific subjects? If a student chooses certain GCSEs and A-Levels to study one degree and then is told at the end of their course that the degree is no longer 'in-demand', you are creating confusion.

Most students are required to do around ten GCSEs and four A-levels (dropping to three in the second year). No student should be locked into one degree at A-level stage - they are actively encouraged to spread their interests and indeed, it makes them more attractive to universities.

The closest you get to a completely specialised A-level student would be Maths, Further Maths and something else and mathematics is pretty unlikely to be "no longer in demand".

getmore4less

Lingua wrote: »

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So many people see education as a chore, or a box to be ticked before going onto the 'real work' - I plan on studying for life, in some form or another. While working I can study through Open University or take night classes, etc. It's a shame that the idea of learning has been reduced to an obligation and not a pleasure to be enjoyed.
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Lingua

in many real jobs the need for continuing education/learning will be enough to keep people busy along side doing their job.

A lot of proper jobs will have a few years of on the job training once the degrees have been done before you are even considered competent, never mind expert then if you take a real interest in the subject you will be exploring the envelope and keeping up with what others are up to.


In many lines of work keeping up is what pushes people into retirement.

Sapphire

getmore4less wrote: »

in many real jobs the need for continuing education/learning will be enough to keep people busy along side doing their job.

A lot of proper jobs will have a few years of on the job training once the degrees have been done before you are even considered competent, never mind expert then if you take a real interest in the subject you will be exploring the envelope and keeping up with what others are up to.

In many jobs you don't need a degree to keep learning – you can learn on the job, and perhaps take up training courses if they are offered to you, or take them up yourself at the fraction of the cost of a degree, if you want to better yourself.

As an aside, I was talking to someone who has two nephews, one with a degree in media studies, who hasn't found a job (though he does little undemanding jobs here and there). My friend (having experience at senior level in a corporation) helped him write a CV/letter to apply for a very good, junior-level job in a prestigious company. He missed the deadline for the application, though he was interested in the job. The other nephew does not have a degree or job. Both are living at home with their parents. A similar phenomenon exists in my family.

Something wrong with the attitudes of people coming out of school/'uni', perhaps relevant to their upbringing at home and at school. Never used to be like that – it was unthinkable to sit around on your apse and to have so little drive to progress in life. What is this generation going to be like as adults?

economic

Sapphire wrote: »

In many jobs you don't need a degree to keep learning – you can learn on the job, and perhaps take up training courses if they are offered to you, or take them up yourself at the fraction of the cost of a degree, if you want to better yourself.

As an aside, I was talking to someone who has two nephews, one with a degree in media studies, who hasn't found a job (though he does little undemanding jobs here and there). My friend (having experience at senior level in a corporation) helped him write a CV/letter to apply for a very good, junior-level job in a prestigious company. He missed the deadline for the application, though he was interested in the job. The other nephew does not have a degree or job. Both are living at home with their parents. A similar phenomenon exists in my family.

Something wrong with the attitudes of people coming out of school/'uni', perhaps relevant to their upbringing at home and at school. Never used to be like that – it was unthinkable to sit around on your apse and to have so little drive to progress in life. What is this generation going to be like as adults?

Its what socialism does. People come to expect everything to be given to them and so they get lazy.

If promises are made that if you get a degree then the world is your oyster, of course people are going to be lazy and expect good things like getting a well paid job will just happen without putting much effort. Problem is they think the effort was doing the degree when in fact in most cases its just a waste of time and money. The real work starts when you are looking for a job and doing a job.

[Deleted User]

Malthusian wrote: »

No. Making nursing into a graduate career is widely acknowledged as an unmitigated disaster. The Suffolk nursing graduates would be much better nurses if they'd spent three years working as nurses.

You know 'student nurses' isn't a purely academic degree? There's big portions that are placements doing 'actual nursey stuff'

getmore4less

Sapphire wrote: »

In many jobs you don't need a degree to keep learning – you can learn on the job, and perhaps take up training courses if they are offered to you, or take them up yourself at the fraction of the cost of a degree, if you want to better yourself.

Of course anyone can, some of us are old enough to be the creators of new lines of education or have contributed to the content of courses or even been part of the creation of whole new sectors that never existed a few years before.

The same will happen today there are those that are creating the future where their knowledge and expertise that they self create gets compressed into a form to accelerate the distribution of that knowledge.

Unlike lower education that gets dumbed down much of decent higher education keeps up with where the subject matter is going.

economic

ringo_24601 wrote: »

You know 'student nurses' isn't a purely academic degree? There's big portions that are placements doing 'actual nursey stuff'

Why do you need to study 3 years for a degree in nursing to become a nurse? Surely you can be a nurse without a degree, learn on the jobs, do some classroom training that doesnt cost 9k a year and take 3 years.

Nursing is not a complex job, its low skilled and you certainly dont need to have a degree to do it.

getmore4less

economic wrote: »

Why do you need to study 3 years for a degree in nursing to become a nurse? Surely you can be a nurse without a degree, learn on the jobs, do some classroom training that doesnt cost 9k a year and take 3 years.

Nursing is not a complex job, its low skilled and you certainly dont need to have a degree to do it.

You are well out of touch with the depth of knowledge required.

Andy_L

Malthusian wrote: »

No. Making nursing into a graduate career is widely acknowledged as an unmitigated disaster.

by whom? filler

Andy_L

economic wrote: »

Why do you need to study 3 years for a degree in nursing to become a nurse? Surely you can be a nurse without a degree, learn on the jobs, do some classroom training that doesnt cost 9k a year and take 3 years.

Nursing is not a complex job, its low skilled and you certainly dont need to have a degree to do it.

You appear to be confusing nurses & health care assistants.