Are Loft Caps Needed For LED's?

lettucekl

I will be installing LED Fire Rated IP20 Downlights in the upstairs of my house, i know that with the older style downlights (Halogen or energy saving) you need to have the Loft insulation caps places over the light housing, is this still needed for these Fire Rated IP20 LED type as LED dont produced anywhere near as much heat as Halogen or energy saver lights?. If so on average they seem to cost approx £11 each!!, if im fitting approx 15 lights upstairs that adds up to a fair bit (more than i paid for the actual lights)

missile

I don't have them over my LEDs.

lettucekl

I have this type.....



So its safe to either lay the insulation over the downlight of cut a bit of the insulation away then?

stator

Is it a mains voltage LED or a low voltage LED with a transformer somewhere else?

I wouldn't cover over a mains voltage LED because they all have a transformer in the back of them which generates heat. This might not be enough to cause a fire, but why take the risk?
Low voltage LEDs won't have a transformer so all the energy comes out the front.

lettucekl

stator wrote: »

Is it a mains voltage LED or a low voltage LED with a transformer somewhere else?

I wouldn't cover over a mains voltage LED because they all have a transformer in the back of them which generates heat. This might not be enough to cause a fire, but why take the risk?
Low voltage LEDs won't have a transformer so all the energy comes out the front.

The description on the website says...

"The specific kit comes with the 5W LED Spotlight included and work directly to 240V, no transformers or drivers needed. It is equivalent 50W halogen. "

stator

Mains voltage then. That big bit on the back is a transformer.

Does it say anything on the packaging about heat and covering it up?

FreeBear

stator wrote: »

Mains voltage then. That big bit on the back is a transformer.

That "big thing on the back" is the termination block to wire the fitting up - I have some very similar fittings. The lamps are GU10 which are rated 5W@240V, so any "transformer" is built in to the lamp itself.

One point for the OP - Cutting holes in the ceiling will cause cold spots and potential for draughts. If you can, it is worth getting some thick Celotex or EPS foam boards and making up some caps to fit over the light fittings. These can be fixed in place using expanded foam from the loft space. Well worth doing even if you have the usual 200-270mm thick loft insulation.

brightontraveller

stator wrote: »

Is it a mains voltage LED or a low voltage LED with a transformer somewhere else?

I wouldn't cover over a mains voltage LED because they all have a transformer in the back of them which generates heat. This might not be enough to cause a fire, but why take the risk?
Low voltage LEDs won't have a transformer so all the energy comes out the front.

This may help some better understand a retro fit mains voltage (often GU10 lamp fitting) have no separate transformer as such all control gear is incorporated within lamp itself (this is not the same as the light and lamp being as one ), low voltage have a transformer that connects to mains voltage and lowers to required amount, [FONT=&quot]You also can have driver incorporated within lamp but separate transformer so heat would be same as “ mains voltage” at lamp face and have never found any that produce same heat at face as any halogen [/FONT]confusing :rotfl:
Some sellers would describe both as being mains voltage ?

There are common types
(Earlier LED)where often the light fitting and lamp are as one these will often have transformer/ control gear incorporated in fitting ( you cannot replace the lamp separately it requires whole fitting replacement )

Mains voltage (retro fit lamps ) these the control gear etc is all incorporated within the lamp you simply remove existing halogen lamp and replace with LED lamp (Light fitting stays the same )

Then you have retrofit low voltage the lamp is replaced as above but you may also need to replace the transformer add a driver ?

Then a con type where manufactures have simply fitted reto fit lamp into an existing fitting e.g £5 fire down light + £3 Led lamp to then sell it for £15 as a LED down light

Then you get people asking can you cover them with insulation that’s not quite as simple as a yes or no because you also have another factor the de-rating of the cable when insulation is added you have scenario where light fitting is designed to be fully surrounded with insulation perfectly correct and within manufactures instruction but the de-rating of cable make it unsafe to do so?

I would advise user if original down lights where correct type and when fitted de-rating was within regulations then using retro fit lamps to replace existing halogens is fine anything else would require further investigation there are other considerations but the above are normally enough ?manufacture would be able to tell you and if needed you can use things like Spot clip £2- 4 each if needed they cheaper than most of the other hood type ones http://www.hellermanntyton.co.uk/site/products/mounting-devices/spotclip-i/148-00076

cyclonebri1

Not read all but the answer is NO, you don't need them if fitting LEDs

But the big issue is, and I don't thing the trade has an answer here is that if you fit 20 3watt led downlighters on a circuit, lighting load 60watt?

What happens when the next penny pinching moron comes along and fits 50 watt halogens in their place, ie, 1 Kw

I don't think legislation has addressed this yet.

brightontraveller

cyclonebri1 wrote: »

Not read all but the answer is NO, you don't need them if fitting LEDs

But the big issue is, and I don't thing the trade has an answer here is that if you fit 20 3watt led downlighters on a circuit, lighting load 60watt?

What happens when the next penny pinching moron comes along and fits 50 watt halogens in their place, ie, 1 Kw

I don't think legislation has addressed this yet.

That’s not entirely true there are other reasons to fit “hoods” apart from fire? Acoustics for example?


They did it was The led down light and lamp all in one you couldn't change just the lamp ? It was a different type of penny pincher those that didn't want to pay for new light fitting or someone to fit them that didn't like them and purchased alternatives from out of uk rise of retro fit and absolutely no control over led specs etc at all....

stator

If you're using mains units with replaceable GU lamps then I would definitely fit the covers.