Trump will bring about a new era of prosperity

Conrad

gfplux wrote: »

Equally worrying is that so many people on this and other threads appear to be taking pleasure in the growing popularity of right wing (National Front) type political party's.
Have we not learnt that we should be afraid of extreme politics, left or right?

Yes, yes yes!


'Liberal' politics have been very extreme for many of us, ignored and castigated for years by arrogant out of touch extreme 'liberals'


The people never gave their consent for extreme dynamics like mass immigration, health tourism, giving away £28m in foreign aid per day, handing the democratic mandate we gave British politicians to technocrats in Brussels, self framing victim privileging, mass benefits culture abused on an industrial scale, biased BBC news reporting and so much more.


YOU guys created this, YOU guys ignored us

norsefox

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I cannot claim to know the inner motives of the man, nor can I verify the honesty of his pledges during his campaign for the presidency.

What I take issue with is the attacks set upon him for an executive order contextualised as a "ban on Muslims" by the media. It is not. The media and the narrative from those frothing at the mouth to denounce the man are wrong, it is not a Muslim ban.

Now if you choose to infer that because he said things during his campaign such as banning all Muslims from entry to the US that lead you to conclude this travel ban, which is directed at 7 countries previously identified as countries of terrorist concern under the Obama administration, is a ban on all Muslims then feel free to do so, I will defend your right to say that. But I will continue to point out that the evidence does not support that inference.

Everything we know about Trump, given his helpful and detailed speeches during the Primaries and Presidential campaign, is that he was super keen to ban Muslims from visiting the USA, or at the least, making it intolerably difficult to enter the US.

Now, he releases a travel ban, aimed at Muslim countries, supported with next to no alternative reasoning.

Given everything we know about the man, how on earth is it not fair and reasonable to judge him against his very own word, supported by his actions?

In any case, this is an inane and pointless discussion. For once, I believe the media are reporting this correctly. It doesn't need nuance.

mayonnaise

Conrad wrote: »

YOU guys created this, YOU guys ignored us

Come here, i'll give you a hug, you poor thing.

norsefox

Conrad wrote: »

Yes, yes yes!


'Liberal' politics have been very extreme for many of us, ignored and castigated for years by arrogant out of touch extreme 'liberals'


The people never gave their consent for extreme dynamics like mass immigration, health tourism, giving away £28m in foreign aid per day, handing the democratic mandate we gave British politicians to technocrats in Brussels, self framing victim privileging, mass benefits culture abused on an industrial scale, biased BBC news reporting and so much more.


YOU guys created this, YOU guys ignored us

The 'people' don't give a mandate for many things. Including Theresa May's Brexit policy.

We elect representatives to make decisions on our part. That is the basis of the social contract.

I'd further question that 0.7% of GDP, given as aid as an extreme dynamic, nor 'mass benefits culture abuse' as a problem given its tiny cost as an overall proportion of the welfare bill.

You are cherry picking (bad) examples to support an already-determined agenda.

wotsthat

Conrad wrote: »

YOU guys created this, YOU guys ignored us

I've tried to explain the flaw in your logic. I'll try again.

Don't blame liberals for the rise in the right and the racist. Liberals don't vote for the likes of Trump, Farage, Wilders and Le Pen.

The Daily Mash might be better able to explain..

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/everyone-to-blame-for-!!!!!-like-trump-except-the-people-who-vote-for-them-20161113117081

!!!!! = twits with an a

People who disagree with Donald Trump and Nigel Farage are responsible for their success rather than the gullible idiots who vote for them, Conrad has decided.

TrickyTree83

norsefox wrote: »

Everything we know about Trump, given his helpful and detailed speeches during the Primaries and Presidential campaign, is that he was super keen to ban Muslims from visiting the USA, or at the least, making it intolerably difficult to enter the US.

Now, he releases a travel ban, aimed at Muslim countries, supported with next to no alternative reasoning.

Given everything we know about the man, how on earth is it not fair and reasonable to judge him against his very own word, supported by his actions?

In any case, this is an inane and pointless discussion. For once, I believe the media are reporting this correctly. It doesn't need nuance.

Have you read the executive order or have you just read the news headlines?

Please point out where the executive order explicitly singles out Muslims in the ban. Then you will be correct. Until such time, other religious denominations are also included in the ban on travel from the targeted countries, therefore, it is not and can never be considered as a ban on Muslims.

It has to state Muslims explicitly, since these countries contain many different faiths, so a ban on citizens of a country is not a ban on a faith. They're just completely different things and I'm really really sorry about this but if you think this is a ban on Muslims, then you, others on this forum and many protesters both here in the UK and in the USA are just wrong. You've not read things properly, you've been led by the headlines and you've got it wrong. Colouring outside the lines of the executive order with what he's said previously to paint the narrative as you wish it to be does not make it true.

As I've said many times prior, I don't want to defend him, I dislike him and I found it astonishing that Trump and Hillary were the best candidates the US had to offer, but if you're going to attack Trump do it when he genuinely steps out of line. Such as the ban on refugees being against the refugee convention. Not that he's banning Muslims, because he's not and you all look foolish for saying it.

wotsthat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Please point out where the executive order explicitly singles out Muslims in the ban. Then you will be correct. Until such time, other religious denominations are also included in the ban on travel from the targeted countries, therefore, it is not and can never be considered as a ban on Muslims.

I'm going to tell myself you're playing Devils Advocate because I don't want to believe you could be so naive.

Conrad

wotsthat wrote: »

I've tried to explain the flaw in your logic. I'll try again.

Don't blame liberals for the rise in the right and the racist. Liberals don't vote for the likes of Trump, Farage, Wilders and Le Pen.

The Daily Mash might be better able to explain..

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/everyone-to-blame-for-!!!!!-like-trump-except-the-people-who-vote-for-them-20161113117081

!!!!! = twits with an a

Trump, Farage et al, filled the vacuum left by the arrogant 'liberal' elites.


People voted for change, they were fed up being ignored and castigated.


The student dailymash article is a complete mis-reading, no wonder lefties are becoming a rare breed

TrickyTree83

wotsthat wrote: »

I'm going to tell myself you're playing Devils Advocate because I don't want to believe you could be so naive.

It's not me being naive, he may well be the most Islamophobic person on the face of the planet in all of human history.

But...

It's down to the fact that his executive order does not single out Muslims. So it cannot be a ban on Muslims. It's a ban on citizens of 7 countries, no matter their faith, skin colour, gender or sexuality. The executive order cannot be used by anyone to suggest that it bans Muslim's explicitly. It doesn't say that, it doesn't imply that. You and others are adding 2+2 and coming up with 9.

Conrad

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

It's not me being naive, he may well be the most Islamophobic person on the face of the planet in all of human history.

But...

It's down to the fact that his executive order does not single out Muslims. So it cannot be a ban on Muslims. It's a ban on citizens of 7 countries, no matter their faith, skin colour, gender or sexuality. The executive order cannot be used by anyone to suggest that it bans Muslim's explicitly. It doesn't say that, it doesn't imply that. You and others are adding 2+2 and coming up with 9.

Lets remember he used the list complied by Obama, with 1 addition.


There's a big picture here that goes well beyond this travel vetting. Trumps team envisage a time when Muslims will be in such number in the west that our liberal democracies will be at stake. Cue a Hamish graph as ever missing the point.


Remember Muslims choose not to go to Muslim nations, as they reject those in favour of western democracies, but then over time there is every chance they will seek to assemble societies according to Islamic doctrine.


Islam is not merely a religion, it is a political code for society.


Trevor Philips report found a significant proportion of Muslims in Britain have merely a luke warm toleration of society. The bulk of Muslims keep to other Muslims, inter faith / inter-racial marriage is not tolerated, there is not a genuine mixing of cultures. Many import Muslim brides to swell the ranks.


Look at images of British culture such as for example the Glastonbury crowds - what do you see....