How to advise friend

Alwayslooking

I had a thread a little while back but had to get it removed due to my rather identifying username. To try and get some proper advice I've re-registered (but only for the purpose of this thread)

In brief....a very close friend of mine (absolutely not me!) has been having an awful time of it over the past few months. It began at the beginning of the year when a family member of hers was accused of something quite serious. My friend, at the time, was on mat leave but it was still hanging over her when she went back as there were services involved in her life because of association (this is a bit long winded but I think it's relevent). When friend went back she confided in her manager, because she was suffering anxiety/panic attacks. She was very clear that the information go further, it was confidential. However, a couple of weeks following the 'chat', her manager's attitude towards her changed and she began to nit pick everything. This manager has been my friends manager for over 10 years, my friend is in a very senior, non-clinical role within the NHS. Her manager is, obviously, higher
(Band 9a I believe) and has a reputation for being...um...poisonous and will go to any lengths to get what she wants, but hides behind her staff and instructs them to do her dirty work (for years she ordered her 'lower' staff to back time breach times to make the Trust look like they were performing much better than they actually were). She has set up 'incidents' that mean a less favoured member of staff leave, believing they are about to be pushed...you get the picture.

Anyway, in Sept, my friend had a severe panic attack whilst on annual leave and was advised by her GP to take a couple of weeks off work to try and sort herself out a bit. Whilst on sick leave my friend had a call from her manager where she was informed that she is being investigated and that she is not, under any circumstances, to speak to anybody that works for the trust (blimmin hard going when all of your outside friends are people you work with). My friend asked the nature of the allegations but was told she didn't want to discuss it over the phone and it would be outlined in the letter that had been posted. The letter arrived and, needless to say, it was pretty much word for word what the manager had said on the phone, no extra information. At no point has my friend been told she is suspended, not in either the call or the letter, even up to this point.

Well done if you've got this far, I'm trying to add everything in!!

So....friend remains signed off by the doctor, referral to occupational health by manager as she wants to know if she's fit to attend a meeting. OH nurse states that friend is in no way fit to attend any meeting, the manager then proceeds to call the nurse and email every day for a week questioning her decision and requests she reconsiders :eek:

Through all of this my friend has still not been informed of the alleged offences and, to add insult to injury, it appears the whole trust has been told as they have all been told she has been suspended for alleged fraud (I know this as I used to work at the trust, no longer do, and still have many friends in many departments that I keep in contact with). The rumours are the first she heard about why she was being investigated.

Where we are now......friend recieved a letter from action fraud requesting she attend a recorded interview. She has been accused of fraud relating to shifts, that is all she has been told. She believes it's to do with the (very poorly thought out) self rostering system they use where the staff are responsible for inputting the weekends they have worked. My friend is adament that she has, and never would, input shifts she hasn't worked.....sounds so simple, if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about, except the anxiety and depression (coupled with the family member troubles and her DH admitting to an affair 3 weeks ago, you couldn't make it up) is absolutely crippling her and she can't see the woods for the trees.

She knows she can't go back to this job, how can she manage her team when she has lost all trust in them? And there is the small issue that one of her team has been given her role.

I've advised her to attend the meeting. What's the point in dragging it out for another month? It's another month in which she can worry and stress, it will make no difference. Now a question....if she takes an employment law solicitor she forfeits her right to union representation further down the line, yet the union have been very underwhelming in their approach (does not help that the 'main' union manager is a close friend to this manager so there is little trust). Would it be wise to go that way anyway??

Sorry this is so long, I'm trying to pre-empt any questions and give decent background!!

Bogalot

This is not something for forum advice. Does she know you have posted this?

She needs to speak to her union, and given the impact this could have on her career, a solicitor.

Fireflyaway

Is there someone trustworthy who could attend with her? I agree with you its worth getting it done sooner rather than later. ACAS should provide some good info.
If this were my friend or me, I would get the issue sorted, clear my name and then look for another job. Its not right to fee bullied or worried every day but if the nasty manager is there to stay I think for the sake of her sanity she should leave.

xapprenticex

Can you do a 1 paragraph version?

gettingtheresometime

I had issues with an employer many moons ago and I was advised that the only people I could take into a similar meeting was a union rep ( and they even wanted to know the relevant info before they would have allowed that person into the meeting) or a colleague.

They also had filled my position in the time between the meeting and I was told that this was also allowed.

im not sure I would advise her to attend the meeting...she doesn't sound as if she's in the right place mentally to fight her corner & I would be concerned that she would 'roll over'.

Why do you say your friend has lost faith in her team - has she head something on the grapevine ?

I agree that if she does go back her days in that role are probably numbered but I think I'd want to leave on my terms rather than someone elses

Alwayslooking

xapprenticex wrote: »

Can you do a 1 paragraph version?

Friend had personal issues, began suffering anxiety/depression, went off sick, had phone call to say she was being investigated but no further information, people throughout workplace told friend has been suspended pending fraud allegation but friend not informed and remains on sick leave, gets letter from investigating team requesting recorded interview......and that's where we are.

Is that easier to digest?

Alwayslooking

gettingthere her team have basically thrown her to the lions but it's kind of understandable as they are all in self preservation mode, wondering if they will be next in the firing line. Also her close friend of almost 10 years standing was one of her team and almost immediately following the call she got a text stating she will no longer be talking to her in either a professional or personal capacity. That's a bitter pill to swallow. A week later she finds this 'friend' was promoted into her position, unsure how when she is still employed and not suspended?

This is relative now I guess, she has spoken to her solicitor who will be attending the meeting (at the cost of £200!), he advised that the union really only serve to help limit damage and help you keep your job, he feels her position is untenable.

I think she needs to get this meeting out of the way, I think she would have recovered from the panic attacks a lot sooner if she didn't have this hanging over her.

(and yes, she knows I have written this)

Undervalued

Alwayslooking wrote: »

gettingthere her team have basically thrown her to the lions but it's kind of understandable as they are all in self preservation mode, wondering if they will be next in the firing line. Also her close friend of almost 10 years standing was one of her team and almost immediately following the call she got a text stating she will no longer be talking to her in either a professional or personal capacity. That's a bitter pill to swallow. A week later she finds this 'friend' was promoted into her position, unsure how when she is still employed and not suspended?

This is relative now I guess, she has spoken to her solicitor who will be attending the meeting (at the cost of £200!), he advised that the union really only serve to help limit damage and help you keep your job, he feels her position is untenable.

I think she needs to get this meeting out of the way, I think she would have recovered from the panic attacks a lot sooner if she didn't have this hanging over her.

(and yes, she knows I have written this)

I find this very surprising.

Unless the solicitor happens also to be an accredited trades union rep then the company are under no obligation to allow him to attend.

But for the rarest of exceptions, your right to be accompanied is limited to a trades union rep or a work colleague. Obviously the firm may choose to allow somebody else but that would be unusual.

One or two specialist employment law firms are able to supply accredited trade union reps (which an employer cannot lawfully refuse) but the costs were generally £500 plus five to ten years ago.

Strangely, technically you don't have to member of the union, nor does the rep have to be acting on the union's behalf. All that matters is that they hold the accreditation. There have be instances for example where a family member has been able to represent an employee because they just happened to be a trades union rep in another field.

Bogalot

Undervalued wrote: »

I find this very surprising.

Unless the solicitor happens also to be an accredited trades union rep then the company are under no obligation to allow him to attend.

But for the rarest of exceptions, your right to be accompanied is limited to a trades union rep or a work colleague. Obviously the firm may choose to allow somebody else but that would be unusual.

One or two specialist employment law firms are able to supply accredited trade union reps (which an employer cannot lawfully refuse) but the costs were generally £500 plus five to ten years ago.

Strangely, technically you don't have to member of the union, nor does the rep have to be acting on the union's behalf. All that matters is that they hold the accreditation. There have be instances for example where a family member has been able to represent an employee because they just happened to be a trades union rep in another field.

There is case law here that (at least on the information given) I suggest would apply. OP should look up Kulkami (I can find the full citation if needed). There is a term in senior clinicians contracts that allows for legal representation at disciplinaries that could have a significant impact on their career.

(Clearly not as straightforward as that but I'm sure their sol will be aware of the case and its implications.)

This is why I said that this case is far too serious for forum advice. However well meaning, incorrect advice could cost a clinician their career.

Undervalued

Bogalot wrote: »

There is case law here that (at least on the information given) I suggest would apply. OP should look up Kulkami (I can find the full citation if needed). There is a term in senior clinicians contracts that allows for legal representation at disciplinaries that could have a significant impact on their career.

(Clearly not as straightforward as that but I'm sure their sol will be aware of the case and its implications.)

This is why I said that this case is far too serious for forum advice. However well meaning, incorrect advice could cost a clinician their career.

Yes, which is why I said

But for the rarest of exceptions

Obviously such a provision can be written into any contract but unless it is then it comes down to if those rare circumstances apply.

In the first post the OP says the friend is "non clinical" so I do wonder if it would apply?

Given the huge cost of specialist legal advice the £200 figure mentioned seems amazingly low. If the employee is to be legally represented then almost certainly the employer will want to be and the whole thing escalates.

Doing this privately, rather than through the union, I fear the OP's friend needs to budget thousands, not a few hundred.

polgara

In the past we have allowed legal representation on a very rare occasion IF the outcome of a disciplinary process would have an impact on their clinical registration

Is it the organisation that is investigating or the NHS Counter-Fraud team? Also, sounds like she was aware of the following 'for years she [manager] ordered her 'lower' staff to back time breach times to make the Trust look like they were performing much better than they actually were' - then don't bring this up in any investigation - at best it looks like she is throwing mud, at worst that she colluded when she should have reported it!

Re non contact - that is standard in an investigation, however she should have been given more support from the organisation.

Re role being replaced - she is not in work, the work needs to be done, in all likelihood someone has been asked to cover her work until she returns/leaves.

Your friend needs to separate out the investigation from everything else going on in her life - her anxiety is no doubt making her overthink everything. Get her mental health in order, and tackle the investigation.