Which debt solution is right for me?

Delabodes

Notevenapot - I have been informed from a debt charity (insolvency service was closed after work- Ill try them tomorrow) that a deed of acknowledgement even if made before bankruptcy is enforceable as you suggest. Your are essentially agreeing that any shortfall cannot enter the bankruptcy 'pot' and you are liable for it.

Now i'm sure I would know if I'd have signed a specific 'deed of acknowledgement', but i did fill out an income and expenditure form with the relative information and stated how much id be willing to pay back each month if they accepted the shortfall sale, which they did not accept and asked for more over the phone. My worry was/is that the terms and conditions on this income/expediture form (I dont remember any) are such that i am liable for the shortfall.

I only ever received one copy to fill out, id have thought with something like a deed or contract id also get a copy for myself. I rang NRAM and they actually told me the income/expenditure form has no T&C's (probably why i can't remember any). I asked for a copy for my piece of mind to which they refused.

Maybe i'm be a little overcautious but want to make sure i know exactly where I stand before go ahead.

I also rang a third debt charity today who also advised BR so I'm pretty sure it is the right choice. The last piece of the jigsaw in my decision is making sure I haven't signed anything that obligates me to pay the shortfall.

NotEvanAPot

Delabodes wrote: »

Notevenapot - I have been informed from a debt charity (insolvency service was closed after work- Ill try them tomorrow) that a deed of acknowledgement even if made before bankruptcy is enforceable as you suggest. Your are essentially agreeing that any shortfall cannot enter the bankruptcy 'pot' and you are liable for it.

Now i'm sure I would know if I'd have signed a specific 'deed of acknowledgement', but i did fill out an income and expenditure form with the relative information and stated how much id be willing to pay back each month if they accepted the shortfall sale, which they did not accept and asked for more over the phone. My worry was/is that the terms and conditions on this income/expediture form (I dont remember any) are such that i am liable for the shortfall.

I only ever received one copy to fill out, id have thought with something like a deed or contract id also get a copy for myself. I rang NRAM and they actually told me the income/expenditure form has no T&C's (probably why i can't remember any). I asked for a copy for my piece of mind to which they refused.

Maybe i'm be a little overcautious but want to make sure i know exactly where I stand before go ahead.

I also rang a third debt charity today who also advised BR so I'm pretty sure it is the right choice. The last piece of the jigsaw in my decision is making sure I haven't signed anything that obligates me to pay the shortfall.

Glad you've verified personally, it is always advisable to double check anything written on an Internet forum for accuracy. You would be shocked at the number of people nowadays that try and use it as a defence in legal issues.

If you are concerned at all, my personal next move would be to ask the specific question of NRAM "have I signed a deed of acknowledgement?" They cannot refuse to answer a direct enquiry.

I cannot see how you will have done, as a deed must contain a specific amount agreed by both parties. As the sale has not finalised, the fees and shortfall would be an estimate, and I am sure you would not have agreed and signed accordingly.

I may spend my days grumbling on the internet currently thanks to my own financial mistakes, but as a former solicitor with 10+ years practise in a corporate advisory position, my ramblings do have some basis in both training and experience.

alltaken

DebtCamel says:

“Help, I’ve already signed one”
If you signed the deed of acknowledgement before you went bankrupt, it doesn’t matter. The mortgage shortfall when the house is sold will be wiped out by your bankruptcy. If you are unsure about this, ask your Official Receiver’s office.

If it was after your bankruptcy, then you need to take advice, especially if you feel you were mislead into signing it. Go to your local Citizens Advice Bureau.

http://debtcamel.co.uk/repossession-deed-of-acknowledgement/

Delabodes

ok so a deed of agreement...


If signed before BR I would be liable for the shortfall (1st charity)


If signed before BR I will not be liable for the shortfall (2nd charity)


If signed before BR I will not be liable for the shortfall (Insolvency Service)


Seems like a bit of a grey area.

alltaken

Delabodes wrote: »

ok so a deed of agreement...


If signed before BR I would be liable for the shortfall (1st charity)


If signed before BR I will not be liable for the shortfall (2nd charity)


If signed before BR I will not be liable for the shortfall (Insolvency Service)


Seems like a bit of a grey area.

It's not. Any debt adviser worth their salt knows that if signed before the bankruptcy it's included, see the Debtcamel link above. Debtcamel is highly respected.

If the IS themselves have told you that it would be included then take that as gospel. Want further clarification in writing? Send them an email asking the same question. I'm glad you followed my advice, the IS have the definitive answer.

NotEvanAPot

Debtcamel, your second debt charity and whomever you spoke with at the IS are incorrect. Get something in writing from someone willing to put their proverbial on the line. Academic if you have not signed a deed of acknowledgement of course.

alltaken, you've quite recently taken to calling in to question almost everything that I have posted. As I have given my basis for legal interpretation of documents such as a Deed of Acknowledgement or a CCA 1974 T&Cs and my understanding of CPR which govern their upholding and enforcement, would you be so kind as to do the same? I do not believe the ability to quote information from websites quite qualifies you to peddle the absolute twaddle you have done in the near past. You postings also remain cached for many to falsely rely upon. The dangers of the internet ages perhaps, but hardly an adequate excuse.

alltaken

NotEvanAPot wrote: »

Debtcamel, your second debt charity and whomever you spoke with at the IS are incorrect. Get something in writing from someone willing to put their proverbial on the line. Academic if you have not signed a deed of acknowledgement of course.

alltaken, you've quite recently taken to calling in to question almost everything that I have posted. As I have given my basis for legal interpretation of documents such as a Deed of Acknowledgement or a CCA 1974 T&Cs and my understanding of CPR which govern their upholding and enforcement, would you be so kind as to do the same? I do not believe the ability to quote information from websites quite qualifies you to peddle the absolute twaddle you have done in the near past. You postings also remain cached for many to falsely rely upon. The dangers of the internet ages perhaps, but hardly an adequate excuse.

The 'twaddle' shared is my own experience and that found by others, if you look at the history of this forum you'll see the same. My advice is more often than not followed by the exact same advice from more experienced members. I won't be put off posting by somebody who posts information that is not upheld and responds with unhelpful judgmental remarks to those seeking help.

This is just another thread that you have tried to push other members out of and continued an attitude of knowing more than everyone else (some very experienced people). This was a very nice board, welcoming and highly beneficial to people looking at bankruptcy, since you have been posting it has become more hostile and unwelcoming.

Should you wish to continue I believe taking your thoughts to a PM would better serve this thread and the board.

NotEvanAPot

So by your own admission, you are offering advice based on what is posted here and elsewhere on the internet, not from a position of learning, training and understanding? Just to clarify that point there.

I'll take my hostile, unwelcome and judgemental postings elsewhere.

My posting style might not be to everyone's liking, but it has honesty, legal understanding and thought out reasoning behind it. When was the last time someone from the Insolvency Service patted someone on the head and said "don't worry, if you did what you did because someone on the internet said it would be OK, we'll just move on to the next point in the process"?

Good luck to all bankrupts past, present and future.

alltaken

NotEvanAPot wrote: »

When was the last time someone from the Insolvency Service patted someone on the head and said "don't worry, if you did what you did because someone on the internet said it would be OK, we'll just move on to the next point in the process"?

Delabodes wrote: »

ok so a deed of agreement...
If signed before BR I will not be liable for the shortfall (Insolvency Service)

I suggested contacting the IS, the poster did so and got the above response, I'd say they know best but of course you would maintain the Insolvency Service is incorrect along with the experienced people on this board and elsewhere. It's that kind of attitude and condescension towards other posters that is unhelpful, I read elsewhere that the deed of agreement would not be upheld in BR, I used what I had learned from respectable publications and applied it in my post, but I'm just an internet person, hence I suggested contacting the IS.... give over and stop arguing

National_Debtline

Hi Delabodes


I'm sorry to hear that you have received mixed messages from different debt agencies. It's always wise to get advice corroborated by others, but of course this can end up leaving you more confused if there are discrepancies in what different services tell you. It's a slightly nuanced area of advice so it's possible that the adviser in question didn't express themselves as clearly as they could have.


Let me address a couple of specific points you raise:


#1 The income and expenditure form you signed.


This is a statement of your means, nothing more, and should not be confused with any sort of "deed of acknowledgement". In any case, the timing of your signature should make this irrelevant - see point #2.


#2 How the shortfall debt is treated in bankruptcy.

Deed of acknowledgement or otherwise, any debts owed at the date of your bankruptcy are included (this includes any shortfall that has yet to materialise because sale has yet to take place - all that matters is that the mortgage exist pre-bankruptcy).


The only way a grey area could arise would be if you were to sign such a deed post-bankruptcy (but before your discharge from bankruptcy). This could potentially create a new, post-bankruptcy debt which would then be recoverable in the same way as any new debts accrued after the date of your bankruptcy.


The simplest approach, of course, is to sign nothing (further) at all, either before or after bankruptcy, and to let repossession happen of its own accord by stopping payments towards the house with immediate effect.


***


Whether bankruptcy is the right option for you is a separate question altogether. I can certainly see why you view it as the option offering the most certainty right now.


Dennis
@natdebtline