At what point is training good enough?

theoretica

'Training' legally needs to be adequate to impart the necessary knowledge. This can take a few seconds, or a few years. It can be done verbally, through a written document or on line.

If you injure yourself through bending your back rather than your knees, or heroically lifting something overly heavy then this training is adequate to protect the employer. Repeating this at you for the next hour isn't going to make a difference - do you like being bored? If you are injured in some foreseeable way not covered by this brief training, then your employer is not covered.

sangie595

Dry wrote: »

I signed that I received the training that was on offer. This does not mean that training was adequate.

If I were an employer I would ensure that manual handling training took at least 30 to 60 minutes and included a practical assessment. This would give me an excellent due diligence defence should an employee decide to sue me.

I knew a guy who was awarded 11k for falling off a ladder because the employers training was deemed inadequate. I suppose seeing this happen has made me very aware of how spending a little extra time training can be a very wise investment.

But you are not he employer. When you are you may run a week long course on manual lifting. Until that time, you have signed an agreement that you received the training.

Are you only arguing about it here because you didn't raise it with your employer - as you should have done if you did not understand fully the training that you received.

shortcrust

Are you sure you're not planning to have a lifting 'accident'?!

I really don't know what you expected. I've worked for really big organisations and the lifting and handling training has usually been a tiny part of a wider programme of training. Sometimes just a couple of clicks on an website, sometimes someone telling us exactly what you were told. Sounds like you were told all you need to know to me. It's not difficult.

Savvy_Sue

Thinking of the limited amount of manual handling we do at work (and mostly it's not me it's a colleague), the only two things I might expect to be added are "we have the following equipment to assist with moving heavy items from one part of the building to another" (a small trolley) and "if a box is too heavy to lift, unpack some of its contents and move it in stages".

We have been shown a DVD which may have lasted as long as five minutes ...

OP, how much manual handling does your job entail?

Torry_Quine

I think it depends what is being moved. My cousin gets a full day training every couple of years which includes practice.

Dry

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

OP, how much manual handling does your job entail?

Lots of lifting awkward trolleys up steps that aren't designed to be lifted this way. A ramp of some sort would be very useful but we have none. Apparently they are on order but nobody knows how long you are You are 'trained' to ask for help if you can't lift something heavy but I am on my own, therefore there is nobody to ask. So you either take a chance and lift something that's heavier than you should lift or you don't do the work and then get into a dispute with your employer on the grounds of health and safety.

shortcrust wrote: »

Are you sure you're not planning to have a lifting 'accident'?!

Yes, I am certain that I will not be having an 'accident' at any point. I just have a fascination with the law. The point has been made repeatedly that manual handling isn't difficult and that my 'training' was pretty much all I need to know. I signed that I received their training. I did not sign that I felt that this training was adequate and even if I did, in a court of law I could not possibly be held to that as I am not qualified to know what is or isn't adequate in the eyes of the law.

sangie595 wrote: »

But you are not he employer. When you are you may run a week long course on manual lifting. Until that time, you have signed an agreement that you received the training.

Indeed, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I have signed that I've received the training. I have not signed that the training was adequate as I am not qualified to know that. However, I do know that the lack of risk assessments and the fact that there is nothing in writing such as a written assessment or questionnaire illustrating what the training consisted of would go against an employer in a court of law.

sangie595 wrote: »

Are you only arguing about it here because you didn't raise it with your employer - as you should have done if you did not understand fully the training that you received.

Nope, as I signed it I told the manager how I felt about her 'training'. I warned her that I had seen this type of 'training' blow up in an employers face before. She is a well meaning but very young manager who clearly has been let down by her own manager I intend to help her, not get her into trouble.

theoretica wrote: »

'Training' legally needs to be adequate to impart the necessary knowledge. This can take a few seconds, or a few years. It can be done verbally, through a written document or on line.

If you injure yourself through bending your back rather than your knees, or heroically lifting something overly heavy then this training is adequate to protect the employer. Repeating this at you for the next hour isn't going to make a difference - do you like being bored? If you are injured in some foreseeable way not covered by this brief training, then your employer is not covered.

I disagree. I do not believe that this training is adequate. You are correct to say that it can be verbal but as is the case with contracts that are not in writing, there is no record of the specific details and the law is all about details.

As for being bored. I have never had mandatory training that hasn't bored me to tears. However, I don't see it as any great effort to present an employee with at the very least a short written assessment to prove the detail of the training they received and to clarify that they understand the risks.

sangie595

Dear Dry
1) what should you not bend when lifting objects?
2) what should you bend when lifting objects?
3) what should you do if you can't lift something on your own?

You passed! Congratulations.

Past that, I'm now really bored of helping you with your homework.

Detroit

Training is adequate if it results in the learning objectives being met.

It is not possible to give a set time for duration of training to achieve this, due to the variables of complexity of the task, and the abilities of the learner to absorb the information.

The learning objectives here have been met if you now know how to lift correctly.

If you don't, talk to your employer immediately and they should arrange for this to be explained again.

If you are not sure, ask your employer to assess your lifting skills to identify any further learning needs.

However, as this would be considered by most to be quite a straightforward matter, if you do this, be prepared for your employer to form opinions as to your ability to take in information.

As a further point, unless you are employed in the legal profession, it may be advisable to restrict your interest and comments on the law to forums and discussion with friends, rather than share them with your employer.

Most employers do not appreciate staff questioning things purely to satisfy their own interest in the law, or on a point of principle.
If you have genuine concerns about your ability, you should raise them.

Otherwise, I would think very carefully about wasting your own and your employers time on this.

I would also caution you in the strongest terms about trying to 'help' your 'young and inexperienced' manager.

Employees best help their managers by doing the job allocated to them to the best of their abilities.

Making asumptions about the ability of your manager and the support she receives, and attempting to address the perceived gaps from a role where this is outside of your remit, will gain you nothing but a reputation as a busy body, at best.
At worst it will result in your dismissal.

Dry

sangie595 wrote: »

Dear Dry
1) what should you not bend when lifting objects?
2) what should you bend when lifting objects?
3) what should you do if you can't lift something on your own?

You passed! Congratulations.

Past that, I'm now really bored of helping you with your homework.

Dear Employer: The above three points appear to be the only manual handling training that you have provided to your employee who is now my client. Unfortunately it would appear that you have failed in your duty of care to provide my client with a safe working environment as your training has neglected to cover the following,

*Space constraints in the area the item is to be lifted or moved,
*Hot and humid conditions,
*Inadequate lighting,
*How to assess the load to see if it's easy or difficult to grip,
*How to assess if the load will affect the handlers view whilst being carried,
*General guidelines for weight limits when lifting objects to shoulder height,
*General guidelines for weight limits for lifting objects that need to be held away from the body,
*Assessing uneven floors,
*Assessing the content of the load to see if it is likely to move when lifted,
*Assessing whether the movement or posture is hindered by the clothing the handler is wearing,

At the very least your training should have covered the above. There are numerous online training companies that provide this training with assessment for as little as £30. This modest investment in your employees health and well being would have saved you from being sued for thousands of pounds because now as a result of your penny pinching you have an employee who has been injured unnecessarily.

Please pay now or we will sue.

Dry

Detroit wrote: »

Employees best help their managers by doing the job allocated to them to the best of their abilities.

Making asumptions about the ability of your manager and the support she receives, and attempting to address the perceived gaps from a role where this is outside of your remit, will gain you nothing but a reputation as a busy body, at best.
At worst it will result in your dismissal.

I agree with you. It just seems to me that she has been put in a situation where she is quite unable to do the job she has been given. She has stated as much, saying that she has never dealt with this type of stuff before and that her experience is in another field entirely. I took this as her asking me to help her but perhaps I was wrong.

If she needs my help and asks for it I will give it, but otherwise I think I might start looking for another job. The more I see and hear the more I think I should consider moving on.