Theft of deceased father's savings and how to claim back

DJM_kent

Hi All

Firstly apologies if this is in the wrong place but I'm looking for some advice from someone in the know with regards to money stolen from my father's account via cash withdrawals and Amazon.

As the title explains unfortunately my Dad passed away last Monday (1st Aug) and had recently been in and out of hospital over the previous month due to his deteriorating health.

While clearing out his flat we soon realised that the cards and statements for his Barclays accounts were missing. The other accounts were all present. As such we called Barclays up on the 3rd August to say that we believed there were cards missing and they confirmed he did indeed have two accounts with them and one credit card.

We then went to see them yesterday having finally received the death certificate and found out to our dismay that someone had been systematically emptying Dad's account with maximum £300 withdrawals made day after day while he was in hospital totaling £6900.

What makes it worse is £300 was withdrawn the day after he died and another £300 on the day itself and just 30 minutes prior to Dad being found dead.

On top of this there were two Amazon purchases (who were useless by the way and just told me they needed to speak to my Dad or take it up with his bank) which amounted to just under £800. There was no evidence whatsoever of any such purchases in his flat following his death and it was very unlike my Dad who tended not to spend money on anything.

We have obviously gone to the police about this but they were not overly optimistic in proving anything so that aside my questions are as follows:

1) I have contacted the Barclays fraud department and requested that they investigate this issue but have since read that the most likely response will be that Dad was negligent as whoever did it obviously found out his pin one way or another. Can anyone please advise where we stand with this as we cannot prove either way how the individual got the pin?

2) The pattern of the money being taken just screams theft to me with just £300 taken out from ATM's between 25th May and 1st July. Then all of a sudden £6900 was taken out in £300 lumps from cash points around my Dad's flat in the subsequent 28 days leading up to his death. Surely this should have flagged up as suspicious?

I appreciate any help you can give on this and thank you in advance.

DJM

bigadaj

You probably need to give a bit more background and context.

Did he live in his own, did he have carers, were other family members at the address?

Could he manage his affairs, was there a power of attorney, did he give someone his pin and card etc to access money.

If you think someone has stolen the money then it's bets to identify them and challenge them. If someone did access money in his behalf then that person should have receipts or records on what that money was spent on.

Was he vulnerable, could he be acting under duress, answering these questions will indicate what can be done, if anything.

DJM_kent

Hi and thank you for the response and I do appreciate your time on this.

We were under the impression that our father was on his own, when not in hospital, and during the period in question however it now turns out that he had a friend staying with him which was unbeknown to us.

We have provided the police with all the information in regards to who had access to my Dad's property during this period (there were a few individuals so do not want to point fingers at anyone specific) and will let them come to their conclusion from the investigation as to who they believe took the money.

The query was more along the lines of what protection do we have from the bank in question for such thefts and should they not have identified such an extreme change in the account activity well before 21 withdrawals of £300 were made in the space of 28 days from an account that normally has a couple of hundred taken out a month?

eddddy

DJM_kent wrote: »

The query was more along the lines of what protection do we have from the bank in question for such thefts and should they not have identified such an extreme change in the account activity well before 21 withdrawals of £300 were made in the space of 28 days from an account that normally has a couple of hundred taken out a month?

I doubt you will get very far with the argument that the bank should have noticed the unusual activity.

The key question will be: Was the money withdrawn/spent with your father's consent?

I guess it's likely that the perpetrator will say he/she had your father's consent.

The police would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the perpetrator did not have consent in order to get a conviction.

And you might have to prove 'on the balance of probabilities' that the perpetrator did not have consent, in order to get the money back from the bank (or to get it back from the perpetrator).

Vortigern

Those 2 Amazon purchases could provide some clues - if Amazon could be made to reveal the delivery address and the nature of the item delivered.

How can Amazon be made to supply this info, when their customer has died?

bris

The pin was used so the banks are very unlikely to get involved. The fact the pin was used suggest some sort of involvement with your father and the fact remains you can never really be sure he didn't authorise or actually do the withdrawals.


You just need to wait and see if the police can find out anything.

davidsuffolk

OP says some withdrawals were after father dies so probably not done himself and IF withdrawals were made with permission then wouldn't asking those who may have had access resolve that. Appreciate the person might claim it was with permission even if it wasn't but at least you'd know who it was and if everyone denies then there is a good chance it is just a thief?

davidsuffolk

OP says some withdrawals were after father dies so probably not done himself and IF withdrawals were made with permission then wouldn't asking those who may have had access resolve that. Appreciate the person might claim it was with permission even if it wasn't but at least you'd know who it was and if everyone denies then there is a good chance it is just a thief?

If claimed to have been with permission you could then reasonably ask why and what was done with the money.

Most likely to have been a thief and maybe Barclays have CCTV of the withdrawals?

DJM_kent

Hi All,

Thanks again for all the responses which confirm, as I suspected, that it would be tricky to prove that my father did not give consent as he is no longer here to confirm otherwise.

I didn't want to divulge too much on here as it is obviously a police matter but we can prove that the individual in question (if it was this person) knew that my father was dead prior the final withdrawal being made. Therefore, with my father no longer with us, there is no way that he could have consented to this particular withdrawal.

Going back to the question of the pin being used, I understand from some research I have been doing, that it is the bank responsibility to prove that my father had been either "fraudulent or negligent" for them to have reasonable grounds to reject the claim and that it is not for us to prove that he wasn't. As such I don't see how anyone can prove this either way unless the bank are going to count on the word off someone who was still stealing from someone after they had passed away.

That said, I'm sure that purely by the fact that the pin was used they will claim that he was negligent for not keeping it safe which to be honest is difficult to argue.


I will also ask the police if they have contacted Amazon to determine where the goods in question were delivered.

angel00079

I think it might be tricky proving that the person did not have authority or that your father was not negligent. This is just speculation but there is a chance your father gave the person his pin for one occasion and it has since been abused.

If the person did have authority, why have the statements gone missing? The issue is how to prove they are missing.

I would have thought the pattern of withdrawls is suspicious. If this was out of character I would have thought this might have been investigated. I know I have had a card company call me up for something that was only slightly out of character. You mentioned cards. I think it might make a difference if it was one card or if spread over cards.