MSE News: Martin's reaction to Brexit

edited 24 June 2016 at 10:33AM in Budgeting & Bank Accounts
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  • bigadajbigadaj Forumite
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    Anthorn wrote: »
    Without being xenophobic I too am not convinced about the economic benefit of migrants. They pay tax and NI but European immigrants send over 100 billion dollars to their home country every year. I'd say those workers are more valuable to their home country than to the country they migrated to.

    http://www.brusselstimes.com/about-us/3284/european-migrants-send-over-100-billion-dollars-home

    Statistics can be manipulated, as we've seen through the Brexit campaign.

    Foreign remittances make up a large percentage of some countries income, you'd generally think of Asia and Africa before Eastern Europe.

    These workers are leveraging economic differences across economies, can't blame them for doing so and in reality the real fault, if there is any, falls at the feet of the British government more than the eu.

    The problem with complaining about immigration is that in general, and there are exceptions, most immigrants are productive and fill a need in the economy they move to. We still currently have low rates of unemployment, reducing immigration would have effects of increasing wages and inflation, both no bad thing in my opinion, and making it more difficult for employers to get away with zero hours contracts. However British people would then be required to do the work, and despite complaints from the poorer end of society about immigration, many unskilled British people don't want to do the work to fill in the gap. This would have to be addressed through the benefits system in combination with wage and price rises, but people sometimes need to be careful what they wish for.
  • edited 30 June 2016 at 9:14PM
    AnthornAnthorn Forumite
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    edited 30 June 2016 at 9:14PM
    bigadaj wrote: »
    Statistics can be manipulated, as we've seen through the Brexit campaign.

    Foreign remittances make up a large percentage of some countries income, you'd generally think of Asia and Africa before Eastern Europe.

    These workers are leveraging economic differences across economies, can't blame them for doing so and in reality the real fault, if there is any, falls at the feet of the British government more than the eu.

    The problem with complaining about immigration is that in general, and there are exceptions, most immigrants are productive and fill a need in the economy they move to. We still currently have low rates of unemployment, reducing immigration would have effects of increasing wages and inflation, both no bad thing in my opinion, and making it more difficult for employers to get away with zero hours contracts. However British people would then be required to do the work, and despite complaints from the poorer end of society about immigration, many unskilled British people don't want to do the work to fill in the gap. This would have to be addressed through the benefits system in combination with wage and price rises, but people sometimes need to be careful what they wish for.

    I didn't mention Eastern Europe nor any country apart from UK. If we state a country in our objection to immigration then we are being racist and xenophobic and that is to be avoided.

    The statistics I posted are from The Brussels Times so if they were manipulated we might conclude that they were manipulated by the EU.
  • bigadajbigadaj Forumite
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    colsten wrote: »
    We need to be very careful not to be seen as the pariahs of the planet. We invaded and occupied most of the world in Victorian times, and got unspeakably rich at the expense of poor countries back then. Nowadays, we pride ourselves to be the 5th richest nation in the world (despite all the "EU red tape"), we are totally happy to eat the fruit and veg picked by immigrants who we pay next to nothing, and then we complain that these people send "huge sums" back to their home countries.

    There's a lot worse around the planet, but there is an element of hypocrisy in the British idea of fairness.

    The bottom line in what is generally a free market economy is that people will move where there's is a need for labour and an economic advantage in doing so. The difference between immigrants and expats is largely of terminology, though different countries have varying needs in terms of the labour required. The Middle East and Africa still have a need for western management and technical knowledge, so you find many Europeans, Americans, Aussies, etc working in oil in the Middle East, mining in Africa etc. I've known several people who have spent a lot of time in China setting up manufacturing facilities for example.

    Large and rapid movements of populations can be destabilising though, if the labour government had effectively managed immigration during the last decade when they were entitled to do so then some of the issues at the referendum certainly wouldn't have been so acute.
  • bigadajbigadaj Forumite
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    Anthorn wrote: »
    I didn't mention Eastern Europe nor any country apart from UK. If we state a country in our objection to immigration then we are being racist and xenophobic and that is to be avoided.

    The statistics I posted are from The Brussels Times so if they were manipulated we might conclude that they were manipulated by the EU.

    Very touchy, racism and being xenophobic are two separate things.

    There was an element of irony in the referendum discussion in that voting for leave made you racist, when a logical outcome of increasing immigration from Eastern Europe, given a finite economy, would be a reduction in immigration from the rest of the world. Most Europeans are, or were, Caucasian, so the leave campaign could be accused of being xenophobic but less logically racist.
  • AnthornAnthorn Forumite
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    bigadaj wrote: »
    Very touchy, racism and being xenophobic are two separate things.

    There was an element of irony in the referendum discussion in that voting for leave made you racist, when a logical outcome of increasing immigration from Eastern Europe, given a finite economy, would be a reduction in immigration from the rest of the world. Most Europeans are, or were, Caucasian, so the leave campaign could be accused of being xenophobic but less logically racist.

    I don't believe that racism and xenophobia has increased as a result of the referendum and neither are they two different things. The basis of both is prejudice.

    The logical outcome of immigration (and colonisation) is in fact a change in the common culture and displacement of the indigenous population. In colloquial language, they will come for as long as there is a place for them.
  • BloombergBloomberg Forumite
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    bigadaj wrote: »
    There's a lot worse around the planet, but there is an element of hypocrisy in the British idea of fairness.

    The bottom line in what is generally a free market economy is that people will move where there's is a need for labour and an economic advantage in doing so. The difference between immigrants and expats is largely of terminology, though different countries have varying needs in terms of the labour required. The Middle East and Africa still have a need for western management and technical knowledge, so you find many Europeans, Americans, Aussies, etc working in oil in the Middle East, mining in Africa etc. I've known several people who have spent a lot of time in China setting up manufacturing facilities for example.

    Large and rapid movements of populations can be destabilising though, if the labour government had effectively managed immigration during the last decade when they were entitled to do so then some of the issues at the referendum certainly wouldn't have been so acute.


    I totally agree with the bottom paragraph. If immigration had been properly managed then people in the UK would have been happy to remain in the EU. The public are understandably worried, housing, jobs and the NHS are impacted by large and rapid not to mention uncontrolled immigration. No matter how you dress it up the UK is full.


    You mention that Africa and the Middle East have a need for technical labour, a Briton doing that kind of job is not suppressing the wages of the working man in that particular country. Richard Branson and David Beckham backed the 'remain campaign'. Easy for them to say, they are totally unaffected by soaring rents and property prices. Furthermore they are not undercut by economic migrants. I've noticed that most of the people who want to stay in the EU are quite well off or rich.
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  • AnthornAnthorn Forumite
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    Bloomberg wrote: »
    I totally agree with the bottom paragraph. If immigration had been properly managed then people in the UK would have been happy to remain in the EU. The public are understandably worried, housing, jobs and the NHS are impacted by large and rapid not to mention uncontrolled immigration. No matter how you dress it up the UK is full.


    You mention that Africa and the Middle East have a need for technical labour, a Briton doing that kind of job is not suppressing the wages of the working man in that particular country. Richard Branson and David Beckham backed the 'remain campaign'. Easy for them to say, they are totally unaffected by soaring rents and property prices. Furthermore they are not undercut by economic migrants. I've noticed that most of the people who want to stay in the EU are quite well off or rich.

    I agreed with your last post but I disagree in part with the latest post quoted. The issue is not uncontrolled immigration but uncontrolled immigration of unskilled labour. There is a difference.
  • BloombergBloomberg Forumite
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    Anthorn wrote: »
    I agreed with your last post but I disagree in part with the latest post quoted. The issue is not uncontrolled immigration but uncontrolled immigration of unskilled labour. There is a difference.



    I should have made that more clear, thank you for pointing that out. As you rightly say, unskilled labour is the issue. If someone with no skills comes here and works in a factory or warehouse and lives on next to nothing and sends a large part of their wage back home are they really benefiting the country?


    Just prior to the EU expansion in 2004 the government predicted that twenty or so thousand people would come here annually from the new EU states. As we all know this figure was dwarfed by the amount which eventually came.




    The U.K can prosper on its own. The EU is a failed political union with an agenda. Look at the misery the Euro has caused. We are better off out. We have basically jumped off a sinking ship. It's only a matter of time before Greece and all the other ailing economies lead to the end of the EU. The death knell has been sounded - pipe dream over for those who thought Europe could fully integrate.
    Money is a wise mans religion
  • BloombergBloomberg Forumite
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    Anthorn wrote: »
    Without being xenophobic I too am not convinced about the economic benefit of migrants. They pay tax and NI but European migrants send over 100 billion dollars from European countries to their home country every year, 17.1 billion dollars from the UK alone. I'd say those workers are more valuable to their home country than to the country they migrated to.

    http://www.brusselstimes.com/about-us/3284/european-migrants-send-over-100-billion-dollars-home



    What an interesting article, thank you. I didn't realise that the figure was so high, with this in mind the benefit migrant workers bring is questionable to say the least. There is nothing xenophobic in your post, I have ethnic minority friends who voted out.



    Controlled immigration would have benefitted the economy and society much more. I don't understand how young people are so pro Europe. Most cannot even think about buying a house, unskilled wages have been reduced in real terms and they now wait two weeks to see a doctor. I am not blaming uncontrolled immigration for everything but it certainly hasn't helped the aforementioned problems.
    Money is a wise mans religion
  • MarchitielloMarchitiello Forumite
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    Bloomberg wrote: »
    What an interesting article, thank you. I didn't realise that the figure was so high, with this in mind the benefit migrant workers bring is questionable to say the least. There is nothing xenophobic in your post, I have ethnic minority friends who voted.


    So after these EU immigrants paid all their taxes and NI contribution, rent, food etc, they send their saving to their home countries to support their family means that they do not benefit the economy?
    Sorry to break it to you but I had a friend working for Western Union few years back who told me that many British Citizens of Asian and African origin do just that, send money regularly to the country where the family were from. You must know that there are many west Africans mums that had babies here until the Tatcher reform so that the babies could get British citizenship at birth, went back home and later the kids have returned to live here (now sending money back).
    Oh, and let's talk about how the very large number of British Retired Expats that have basically moved almost at once all their life saving and investment to Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Italy and Portugal and still get the entirety of their Pension spent there...
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