Working Away Allowance/Accomodation Question

akira181

I travel around the UK a lot (often on very short notice) and I do not understand the subsistence allowance and what I'm entitled to. I work in the construction industry if that is relevant. My boss seems to change his mind every couple of months and he has started to seriously penny pinch this time. It's starting to feel like he doesn't value his employees.

Considering when I work away, my life is effectively on hold Monday to Friday (occasionally the weekend as well), I'd like to know what I am legally entitled to. I'll explain the current situation and hopefully someone smarter than me can clarify since the HRMC website doesn't use English that I can understand.

My boss always books the cheapest place possible (he budgets £35 a head, £40 if breakfast is included) so we end up getting twin rooms, occasionally someone sleeps on a couch / sofa bed for the week. Sometimes the places are not in very safe neighbourhoods or are quite horrible places; certainly not in a place he would stay himself. Can we refuse to travel if the neighbourhood is not safe, sharing rooms, sleeping on a couch, on short notice, etc?

Second is the expenses. He is saying on the first day away, only receipts for the evening meal will be accepted and on the last day, only receipts for breakfast. All other days away, it's £5 for breakfast if not included in the hotel, £5 for lunch, and £10 for dinner. If the accommodation has kitchen facilities, then it's £50 a week as you are expected to cook.

Considering I've spent the last 3 months working in the centre of London, £20 doesn't go very far. Can I argue for a more realistic allowance that's adjusted to the cost of living?

Lastly is timesheets and expense reports. I usually get them in on time, but I might miss one for the odd week occasionally. He is saying if they are not in within 2 months, he will not pay the hours/expenses. Not to mention he often adds up overtime incorrectly and it's up to you to figure out where he made the mistake before he will pay up. It can get quite confusing when overtime is paid a month in arrears. Is this legal or just a bluff as I know some colleagues are quite bad for getting them in on time?

Sorry for the long post but hopefully I've explained my situation properly and someone can offer me advice. Thanks in advance!:(

daytona0

since the HRMC website doesn't use English that I can understand.

Really? I find that quite strange seeing as your English in this post is perfectly fine... (I am assuming that you might be a non native English speaker)

My boss always books the cheapest place possible (he budgets £35 a head, £40 if breakfast is included) so we end up getting twin rooms, occasionally someone sleeps on a couch / sofa bed for the week.

I'd possibly kick up a fuss about sleeping on the couch/sofa and the lack of privacy, but they are providing you with a place to sleep for free and you are aware that you will not be able to stay at hom so I don't see much of a problem. Depends on how much you get paid. If you're on a decent wedge then I wouldn't be too bothered about sleeping on the couch personally (done that before on JSA ).

Sometimes the places are not in very safe neighbourhoods or are quite horrible places; certainly not in a place he would stay himself. Can we refuse to travel if the neighbourhood is not safe, sharing rooms, sleeping on a couch, on short notice, etc?

Safe by whose standards? Because I've been up to Newcastle a few times (to watch the football) and I always stay alone in cheap !!! hotels right on the outskirts, in "rough" areas. There is nothing wrong with them.... Same goes for my closest city, Liverpool. Done some shifts in Huyton in the past, but it hasn't been THAT bad!

You can refuse to travel if you want, you just won't get paid

Unless you're in some council estate or in some rough borough of London then I'd be inclined to think that you are exaggerating a bit

Second is the expenses. He is saying on the first day away, only receipts for the evening meal will be accepted and on the last day, only receipts for breakfast. All other days away, it's £5 for breakfast if not included in the hotel, £5 for lunch, and £10 for dinner. If the accommodation has kitchen facilities, then it's £50 a week as you are expected to cook.

Well, on the first day you'll probably be arriving at around 12-4pm so I understand why he'd only want to pay for the evening meal. With the last day, checkout is usually about 11am so again that covers breakfast. I understand that you are travelling on the 1st/last day and may want additional food expenses but in honesty I don't get paid for my golden grahams every morning before I go to work so why should you?

£5 for breakfast seems more than fair. You can buy a whole bag of golden grahams and a litre of milk for that!

£5 for lunch is justifiable. You aren't feasting, but it can buy quite a bit.

£10 for dinner is also justifiable. In terms of takeaway meals the world is your oyster on that one!

£50 a week, wish I had that much money to spend on food! Might start eating more healthily

Considering I've spent the last 3 months working in the centre of London, £20 doesn't go very far.

Arrgh London! Dammit. I'll keep the above bits even though it isn't fully applicable.

£20 for pre-prepared food a day in London is more than manageable. It isn't THAT MUCH more extortionate.

Can I argue for a more realistic allowance that's adjusted to the cost of living?

Of course. If you feel that you should be paid more then politely point it out! No harm in trying.

Lastly is timesheets and expense reports. I usually get them in on time, but I might miss one for the odd week occasionally. He is saying if they are not in within 2 months, he will not pay the hours/expenses.

Well then get them in within 2 months. That isn't rocket science.... Hint: Don't miss any of them.

Not to mention he often adds up overtime incorrectly and it's up to you to figure out where he made the mistake before he will pay up. It can get quite confusing when overtime is paid a month in arrears. Is this legal or just a bluff as I know some colleagues are quite bad for getting them in on time?

Well that's a different kettle of fish and probably the first incompetency I've heard about your employer!

I would assume that he's just got a few people on his books and he makes errors. Wouldn't necessarily start talking about "Is this legal or just a bluff".

Though your colleagues need to sort their stuff out...

Darksparkle

You do know that your employer doesn't actually have to give you anything for your expenses? So if they give you something then it's better than nothing.

You can argue with it, but they don't need to change it. If I was arguing about anything it would be sleeping on the couch or even having to share with someone. Would never happen in my work.

Their 2 month time limit for submitting expenses is perfectly reasonable.

Overtime does sound like an issue. How is it dealt with? Shouldn't be difficult to work out, overtime x rate of pay.

akira181

Thanks for the reply folks.

It's just in my last company, basically anything that I needed as a result from travelling for work could be expensed (within reason of course). For example if I forgot toothpaste or something but not with this company.

But this company are extremely strict to the point where it feels like the sacrifice you make for them is not appreciated. I got 12 month contracts and memberships that I pay for at home, which I can barely use and cannot cancel yet. It's also hard to plan your time when you do work at home as you may get a text message at 9pm telling you that you're working in XYZ tomorrow for the next X weeks.

Working longer hours away from home, the least they could do was give you a decent meal at the end of the day. Months of take out food on a budget is not doing my health any favours!

I know for a fact he charges the client double for overnight accomodation than what he offers us. In London, I stayed in East ham once and someone tried to mug me at an atm in broad daylight. Another time in shadwell in a council estate where intoxicated groups of people were hanging about at all hours of the day. One time in Birmingham, he had booked a place that was clearly a squat and not a legit hotel.

I don't know if my last company were too generous but I don't see why I should have to take a hit in my quality of life (sleeping on sofa beds, sharing rooms, etc) when I'm working away constantly. I can't even make a phone call in privacy unless I go sit in the car.

For the overtime, it's not so easy. It's a month in arrears so I have to look over what I submitted a month ago, then compare it with what he added up on the printouts in the office (if I ever get a chance to get into the office) to see if he's make a mistake, red penned something and not told me, or if a timesheet has gone missing/not sent in.

I think the work atmosphere is a little sour just now as the general feeling is that we're not valued employees but just trained monkeys at his disposal. Its just nice to know where I stand. I didn't realise travel expenses from the employer were optional (although I don't see why any employee would agree to work away if that were the case since we don't get paid any extra for doing so).

Darksparkle

Some employers are very generous with expenses, some are not. There are various reasons why that might be. There are many expenses when it comes to running a business so even though a business is making money, it might be that it's not possible for them to afford to let you spend whatever you want on hotels/food etc. Or they may just not want you to. It is their business so their choice.

My employer isnt generous with hotels, the main problem being that we generally travel to cities which are more expensive. Our "allowance" hasn't went up in about 10 years.

They are however generous with meals. However I could easily manage on what your employer offers you without it affecting my health.

£5 for breakfast is more than enough with tea, toast and some fruit.

For lunch, most shops do a meal deal for lunch that's under £5, usually sandwich, drink and a snack.

There's usually somewhere to get free water throughout the day.

£10 for dinner would depend on where you were but manageable if you do some research into the area and look for a deal.

I don't see how being paid a month in arrears makes it any more difficult if adequate records are kept.

In January I worked 12 hrs overtime. 6 hours fell into January pay day, 6 hours into February pay day. So I know next week when I get paid, I should be paid for an extra 6 hours and can check my payslip to confirm this.

getmore4less

Wetherspoons is your friend on that allowance.

Sharing rooms would be unacceptable to me except when that's all that is available.

This one where everyone has to be on the same page to get things changed. Mass refusal to stay in places if not suitable.

Find a new job is probably the solution.

akira181

Well, on the first day you'll probably be arriving at around 12-4pm so I understand why he'd only want to pay for the evening meal. With the last day, checkout is usually about 11am so again that covers breakfast. I understand that you are travelling on the 1st/last day and may want additional food expenses but in honesty I don't get paid for my golden grahams every morning before I go to work so why should you?

Well I don't arrive at around 12 to 4. I have to be there at 8am so if I have to leave my house at around 3 or 4am and drive. You don't get your golden graham's paid for but you don't have your golden graham's at around 2 to 3am every week either do you?

don't see how being paid a month in arrears makes it any more difficult if adequate records are kept.

In January I worked 12 hrs overtime. 6 hours fell into January pay day, 6 hours into February pay day. So I know next week when I get paid, I should be paid for an extra 6 hours and can check my payslip to confirm this.

I do have adequate records, it's how I know I'm short. I can see in November I was short 18 hours and when I query it, I'll get sent a summation of my hours (which is the same that appears on my payslip). So no use at all.

I still haven't had a day since November where I've been at home and able to go into the office and find the mistake on their paperwork. Is it poor adding up, lost timesheet, boss decided to red pen a few hours, etc. I don't know until I get into the office and won't get paid until I locate the mistake myself.

Some employers are very generous with expenses, some are not. There are various reasons why that might be. There are many expenses when it comes to running a business so even though a business is making money, it might be that it's not possible for them to afford to let you spend whatever you want on hotels/food etc. Or they may just not want you to. It is their business so their choice.

I quite often do tenders for the jobs we get so I know how much he is charging. It's annoying to see he charges the client £95 for away accommodation per employee working away but when it comes to it, the employee gets £40 and he pockets the rest. And unless a job runs over, which they rarely do, 60+% of the tender is profit, which easily goes into the tens of thousands.

So when you know the costs and profit margins, you can understand why the work atmosphere is a little sour when you work 12 hour shifts away from home all week and he starts complaining that "your expenses on a Tuesday were 10 pence over, I'm not paying that, etc."

So it's just nice to know if we are entitled to anything or is it at the bosses discretion. Just so we don't get angry at the boss when it's really the tax man's fault or something.

bugslet

FWIW, we pay £8.00 on breakfast if it's not included in the room, £5.00 lunch and £20.00 for evening meals, though sometimes we are in the middle of nowhere and the hotel is the only place to eat, so we aren't rigid on that if there's a reason.

Hotels are usually premier inn quality, location based on where the truck is left and is reasonably close by. Drivers don't share unless it's an absolute emergency.

I agree that if your time/work sheets aren't in within two months tough. The odd error in calculation , well we all make mistakes, but if it's frequent, I'd be speaking with him. Yoou have a contrct where he pays you correctly and in a timely fashion and you do your work without mistakes.

DKLS

Thats a pizz poor T&E allowance, especially for London. I thought I had a bad deal when a company would only put me up in Premier Inns!

The last time I was asked to share a room with the tight arrised MD, I paid for my own room and resigned the day after, the majority of places where I have worked, work on the premise that if you are away from home you should be as comfortable as you would be at home.

Current place pays £12o per night out of London and £180 for Central London, Breakfast up to £20, Lunch and Dinner varies depending if entertaining clients or not, if on own its £28 for dinner and the most I have spent is £1,200 for dinner for 6 but that was entertaining CEO's and the wine bill was :eek:

Darksparkle

Akira181 wrote: »

Well I don't arrive at around 12 to 4. I have to be there at 8am so if I have to leave my house at around 3 or 4am and drive. You don't get your golden graham's paid for but you don't have your golden graham's at around 2 to 3am every week either do you?



I do have adequate records, it's how I know I'm short. I can see in November I was short 18 hours and when I query it, I'll get sent a summation of my hours (which is the same that appears on my payslip). So no use at all.

I still haven't had a day since November where I've been at home and able to go into the office and find the mistake on their paperwork. Is it poor adding up, lost timesheet, boss decided to red pen a few hours, etc. I don't know until I get into the office and won't get paid until I locate the mistake myself.



I quite often do tenders for the jobs we get so I know how much he is charging. It's annoying to see he charges the client £95 for away accommodation per employee working away but when it comes to it, the employee gets £40 and he pockets the rest. And unless a job runs over, which they rarely do, 60+% of the tender is profit, which easily goes into the tens of thousands.

So when you know the costs and profit margins, you can understand why the work atmosphere is a little sour when you work 12 hour shifts away from home all week and he starts complaining that "your expenses on a Tuesday were 10 pence over, I'm not paying that, etc."

So it's just nice to know if we are entitled to anything or is it at the bosses discretion. Just so we don't get angry at the boss when it's really the tax man's fault or something.

But do you know all the companies expenses? I didn't realise how much some companies have to pay out until I started to see company accounts. Either way, it's his business so he can charge what he likes and reimburse what he likes.

It's not a tax issue, HMRC don't have a cap on T&S as long as it can be proven it's business,

Take it you don't have a union that could help you with it?

akira181

I have seen a top overview of the companies finances and profit (not turnover) was above and beyond 1 million for the last fiscal year. So profit margins are not tight at all.

A premier Inn would be like the penthouse suite in the Hilton compared to the places he finds. We bought sleeping bags cause this place is so dirty we don't want to touch the sheets. I also need to use earplugs cause my colleague snores so loud.

He also once refused to pay my train ticket cause I could have driven a half hour in the opposite direction to car pool with a colleague.

I think I'll just start searching for a new job opposed to going to a union. He's a penny pinching swine and going to a union isn't going to help the work atmosphere at all